Why the Ashby kickback?

[ozy clint]

I've noticed on a few other places that there is quite a bit of push back against the work of Dr Ashby.
People disagreeing with his findings, methods etc.
FOC seems to be a contentious issue with people saying it's false that high FOC is beneficial for arrow flight and penetration.

Why the hate??

[Bowsey Wails]

Everyone has an opinion as to what works best based upon experience. Very few have done controlled side by side comparison testing. One bad experience with something new, and the "something new" gets the blame most of the time.

[huckbuck]

It is hard to dismiss Ashby's study of arrow penetration on Big Game or heavy bone, although not as important on most American Game as efficient blood hemorrhage...IMHO.

 

[Ray Lyon]

I think you may be reading into it incorrectly.  I have recommended Ashby principles to archers shooting marginal setups at game to get the extra margin of penetration to be effective.  For most setups with deer and game size animals there's no need to subscribe to Ashby doctrine and those individuals have done it successfully for years.  They take offense to someone saying they should change because they've been doing it "wrong" for years and Ashby doctrine is the only truth. 

[Maclean]

The main issue I see with Ashby naysayers is when they apply his findings to North American game animals. Ashby's studies were done on large, heavy boned, thick skinned African game animals. It's really not necessary when bowhunting most North American game animals. If I were going to hunt Africa, you can bet I'd be using heavy, weight forward arrows.

[Burnsie]

Ashby's studies makes sense in principle, and I went down that trail a bit myself. But as others have said, unless you are hunting large, heavy boned, thick skinned African animals, it's sort of overkill for "most" North American game.
I really like the way a heavy high FOC arrow quiets your bow, but I needed to be inside 20 yds shooting those heavy arrows. After that it was like they fell off a cliff!
I think where Ashby's info got a bad wrap was when people started taking it to the extreme to EFOC & UFOC, Extreme & Ultra front of center. It got to be kinda crazy, which I think lead a lot of archers to say: "You know what, I'm just going back to the old tried and true 9-10 gpp, with a properly spined arrow" That combo has killed a lot of animals throughout history.

[McDave]

You should know better than most, Ozy.  Those Australian water buffalo are tough old animals.

[TaterHill Archer]

I saw this on another site and I would say this quote pretty much sums it up.

" I don't think many people hate Ashby or his studies. I think they just get tired of being told they need dangerous African game setups to kill a 200 pound deer and anything less than a 650 grain arrow with 25% FOC will bounce off."

In my opinion, Ashby's studies overlook one important detail, at least for hunters I know. While heavy arrows will kill a deer, lighter arrows have been killing deer just fine here for, maybe, hundreds of years.   I have seen 9 GPI arrows go all the way through full grown deer and stick in the ground on the other side.  A 12 gpi arrow wouldn't have killed them any deader.

[TaterHill Archer]

And I presume you've read this thread. I stand by my notes on this.  His findings were tainted by his bias and he admits it in later writings.

https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=185384.60

[trad_bowhunter1965]

I first want to say this is my opinion I have nothing bad to say about Dr Ed, there has been a ton of big and small.game and Humans killed light weight broad heads a lot more than extreme FOC, again not putting Dr Ed down. And here some food for thought it you ever drove a metal T post in the ground than you know what I am talking about.you can't drive it in the ground with the Majority of the weight up front. Just my 2 cents

[Kirkll]

I just lost a perfectly good long winded post due to a time out, and the new security on my iPad here.  Damn.

Short version is more about EFOC arrows vs a std 12-15% FOC and arrow flight at unknown distances.   HUGE difference in trajectory and arrow flight. Bottom line is accuracy is much more important than penetration worries when hunting. I'll stick with my 12% FOC and helical shafts any day....  I did play with it when the rave was on. Not for this kid....   Kirk

[Pat B]

Kirk, where do you get your helical shafts.     

[Bullchaser1]

Ozy, have you heard of a guy from Australia I think his name is Jack Spinx. He talks about testing arrows on buffalo there and he found he couldn't get good penetration until he went to a lighter arrow setup. I think he said the heavier arrow with efoc didn't recover fast enough to penetrate well until longer distances. I think he was shooting low 500 grain arrows with heavier weight recurves. Interesting stuff. I'm shooting about 590 grains total arrow from 62#. Works well on everything up to elk so far. But elk are way different than buffalo I'm guessing!

[Kirkll]

Kirk, where do you get your helical shafts.     

       Heilical fletching....  

[Kirkll]

Ozy, have you heard of a guy from Australia I think his name is Jack Spinx. He talks about testing arrows on buffalo there and he found he couldn't get good penetration until he went to a lighter arrow setup. I think he said the heavier arrow with efoc didn't recover fast enough to penetrate well until longer distances. I think he was shooting low 500 grain arrows with heavier weight recurves. Interesting stuff. I'm shooting about 590 grains total arrow from 62#. Works well on everything up to elk so far. But elk are way different than buffalo I'm guessing!

I can actually see that being a fact. The EFOC arrows have got to be tuned perfectly, and stiff enough to snap back quickly. If your spine is on the weak side those EFOC arrows are not hitting the target straight on. They are tail waggers....

[ozy clint]

Any arrow configuration is going to perform poorly if it isn't tuned.

Are EFOC arrows highly sensitive to tuning or shooting errors?

[pdk25]

The tricky part begins when people apply the Ashby principles perfectly and still don't get enough penetration for a clean kill.  This happens more than you would think, and likely over 50 percent of the time on dangerous game in the real world.  Do your own research, talk to guides, etc.

[LookMomNoSights]

I just lost a perfectly good long winded post due to a time out, and the new security on my iPad here.  Damn.

Short version is more about EFOC arrows vs a std 12-15% FOC and arrow flight at unknown distances.  HUGE difference in trajectory and arrow flight. Bottom line is accuracy is much more important than penetration worries when hunting. I'll stick with my 12% FOC and helical shafts any day....  I did play with it when the rave was on. Not for this kid....  Kirk

This!!!  Specifically the trajectory part .......
You know,  if you bring up Ashby 100 years from now,  people will still be here or there with it.....which tells you something in itself.  If it were all B.S.,  it would not be an argument!  Is it relevant to you personally?  That's up to the individual.  I'll say it's all cool info whether it pertains to what I've got going on or not.  It's cool someone actually took the time to get into the nitty gritty of such a topic.
For ME and what I'm doing,  I think in alignment with Kirk.  Accuracy is king,  hit them in the pumping station with a sharp broadhead that is flying straight and true.   Add salt and pepper to taste. 

[Roger Norris]

I think Dr Ashby's data and research are accurate and very telling.

But most of us hunt whitetails under 200 pounds, and I also believe (strongly) that a single bevel head leaves the worst blood trail of all of our broadhead options.

[Kirkll]

Any arrow configuration is going to perform poorly if it isn't tuned.

Are EFOC arrows highly sensitive to tuning or shooting errors?

You are right about the tuning all arrows is important. But there is a lot to be said about a well spined arrow with a good helical on the fletching that has a decent FOC balance.. With the EFOC set ups, you are talking straight, ultra low profile fletching that do nothing to help stabilize the arrow flight.

Yes they are not very forgiving at all to a less than perfect release, and an inconsistent anchor point can really screw things up even if they are spined perfectly.

Granted... that is true for any type of arrow set up and not getting quite to full draw.  But... with a helical fletching, and tuning your spine slightly weak. The arrow flight dosen't suffer as much and stabilizes with that arrow spinning. even with a string pluck, it stabilizes much quicker, while the EFOC shaft wags its tail all the way to the target.

And shooting longer yardage,  the extra tip weight causes a nose dive as the arrow speed bleeds off, and a well balanced 12-15% Foc arrow that is spinning will shoot much flatter and longer distance.