Has anyone shot a BW pch next to a toelke pika? I have been shooting pikas for the last 7 years and love them but am curious if the BW has the edge from a performance standpoint. I have a 25.5" draw and could be tempted to try a BW if there could be some performance gain. Its hard to believe anything could be better than the toelkes I have shot though...

Where are you measuring your draw length? From the back of the riser? Or the deepest part of the grip? 

getting decent performance from any bow with a shorter draw length is tough to do without having something custom built that is draw length specific. I'd put my money on Dan's bows over BW.   .02 cents.    Kirk

My experience is that BW makes good bows. I've had a few. But even if there is some gain in performance you may find you still like the Toelke Pika better.  After 60 years of shooting bows and spending way to much money looking for the one bow that is better I've finally realized that performance is good but shootability is the key.

The comparison is a little skewed. The Pika is a short R/D longbow whereas the PCH is a short recurve. Better to compare the PCH to a Chinook. No disrespect to Black Widow, but the Toelke Chinook is one of the finest recurves ever built. And since you know you like Dan's bows you might consider giving the Chinook a whirl.

If looking for performance I don't own one but know folks who do and the like the Centaur,

I measure with a marked arrow to the deepest part of the grip. I absolutely love Dans bows, and the Pika is a treat.

I have shot the chinook and love the bow but am very comfortable with a bow that is 52-54" and feel this optimizes performance at my short draw. Soes the chinook gain that much over dans whips?  For example my 56" pika 50# @ 25.5 (measured) gives up 10fps to my 52" pika that is 50# @ 25.5. I dont notice a large difference in shootability.

I have a dall sheep hunt in a year and a half and am planning an arrow in the 9-10gpp range from a slightly heavier bow than what I have now. Ultimately I was curious if the BW pch might be worth trying or if ill stick with a pika in a slightly heavier draw weight.

If you're looking at short, fast bows, you might also consider a 52" Elkheart Magnum. A simply amazing little firecracker.

I have a Chinook and really like it.  Had a BW PCH and sold it.  Couldn't get it quiet, at least to my standard.  The Chinook is really quiet with the string Dan supplies.  That said, I have a 58 inch Kanati that I shoot lights out.  Took some work to quiet it down, but with a TTT B55 string it is really quiet.  I like it so much that I ordered a new 56 inch Kanati.  Jason is building a new 56 inch bow that will have slightly more hook in the limbs.  He said it will make the bow draw more comfortable for a 56 inch bow and a slight boost in performance.  All for $625 vs $1600 for a Black Widow.  And the Kanati is fast.  My Kanati is 38 lbs and the Chinook is 40 lbs.  I feel the Kanati is slightly faster but I shoot arrows that are 12 to 13 GPP, so don't give a hoot about speed.  I like to watch the spin of my feathers!!!!!!!!

If you have committed to guided hunt for Dall Sheep and your thinking about a heaver bow why not order one from Dan in the weight, tiller, and length, you want, now. If you switch to a different bow the added physical weight, with a different bow quiver if you use one, might be a challenge. As an option, call the two and ask them for performance info on the final two bows your considering, and ask for specs on the two, whether finger pinch is an issue. What size glove do you use? Ask if they have a trial period, and the cost.

I just chronoed my PCH a couple of weeks ago with the Garmin Chrono... which is very accurate.
My 60" PCH at 46 lbs is pushing my 465g arrows at 178 fps.
I have a long draw though... but it is 46 lb at my draw.
A bit over ten grains per pound... that is not bad.

Both my PCHs have been my fastest Widows by a few fps.

Matt.  Measuring to the throat of the grip only is not the standardized way of calculating draw length. If it's 25.5-inches from the string to the deepest part of the grip, according to AMO standards your draw length is 27 1/4 inches. The AMO standard is to measure draw length to the deepest part of the grip, and add 1.75 inches to account for grip depth.  A lot of folks just measure to the back of the bow.  They yield similar and sometimes identical results.  If buyers, sellers and builders of bows use different ways of measuring draw length, it can lead to misunderstandings. That's the reason for the agreed upon standardization. 

I've never shot the PCH against the pika, but have against the Whistler and the Whip.  I don't own a chronograph, so I have no real numbers, but just going off of feel, I would say the PCH is not faster then either of them, and definitely not as quiet as either of them either.  I found the PCH to be a very good looking bow and incredibly stable and forgiving, but ultimately sold it. 

The basic BW design places the grip a good 1/2" to 1" farther forward than most bows, to enhance stability, and the pch follows this same design feature.  This results in a higher brace height than other comparable bows.  For example, I brace my BW's at 8 1/2" and other comparable recurves at 8", on the average.  (The pch would probably have a lower BH than this because it is a shorter bow than the BW's I shoot).  This means that the working draw length of a BW is less than other comparable bows by this same difference, which has an effect on performance.  BW does everything they can to increase performance to offset this built-in feature, but there's no such thing as a free lunch, so most other bows without this feature will have higher performance than a comparable BW.

You either like it or you don't.  I generally prefer my BW for hunting because hunting is done at closer ranges where stability matters more than performance.  For 3D or longer range shooting, I prefer a bow with more performance, or a heavier, longer bow that offers both stability and performance, but at a cost in weight and flexibility that is more than I want in a hunting bow.

I haven't shot a Pika to compare, but do have a Chinook and have had a couple PCH's and several PSA's.  The BW's are wonderful bows and great people.  Their bows are steady and reliable, but wouldn't say they have better performance over a Toelke.  I have shot a PL for years and love the thing. Taken a lot of critters with it, but I got that Chinook and it's crazy how much smoother it is to shoot and the speed is at least as fast. I have never chrono'd anything.  Biggest reason I think you should stick with a Pika in the weight you need is physical bow weight.  That pch would be waaay heavier than that nimble little Pika. That I promise you.  I think it would be a lot louder as well.  I wouldn't switch for that hunt if I were you.  If you just want a widow later great, but I sure would want something you're use to and the physical weight you're used to for a hunt like that.  Good luck and let us know what you go with! Good problem to have! 

I've shot BW recurves for over 40 years...with an occasional interruption with other bowyers here and there for short periods. I always followed up with the purchase of another Widow. I'm comtemplating another one at the moment.

I always thought of Black Widow as a company that has longevity and will be there when others have ceased being around when you need help. The customer service is second to none. There are bowyers who make prettier bows, bowyers who make faster bows, and bowyers who have good customer service. Still...if you took a composite score of all of the above I still think BW would have one of the highest grades. I understand that statement is very subjective, but I feel strong enough about it to have used them over four decades with the purchase of likely more than 10 bows.

As for as performance, Black Widow just released a video on you tube testing the speed of one of their longbow models in laminated, bamboo, and carbon limb cores. Its a great watch and I recommend that you spend a few minutes getting examples of speed. Recurves are a little faster than longbows in most cases. Regardless, the new carbon limb cores are just flat out smoking and handle a heavier arrow substainally better than their other models.