Quote from: Terry Green on October 16, 2025, 02:00:18 PMZwickey Delta 4 Blades since the 80s

I have also killed the random animal here and there with Sponsors heads from time to time. WIDE 2 blades and 3 blades.

My 2000 pound plus bison was killed with a Wensel Woodsman.

Never killed anything with a single bevel.  See no need to try.

I gotta echo Terry's post here, only I did try and kill hogs with a single bevel head on one of my Texas hog hunts... I got complete pass thoughs on both of them, but no blood trail to speak of. I'm quite certain I killed two hogs I never found. Once I went back to a 3 blade, the difference was huge. Much better blood trail. I have killed a lot of critters with a 3 blade woodsman broadhead, but grizzly makes a damn nice 3 blade 3:1 shape too that is outstanding.  You guys can have your two blade broad heads. I can't see single bevel or double bevel making a lot of difference to me.

3 blades = more blood on the ground.... Period.

I remember when Dr. Ashby's research was new to me and was being discussed quite frequently here and on other boards.  It dominated discussions on which broadhead to use.  Rt or Lt bevel and matching fletching to the bevel of the head, etc.... I bought into some of the hype and got some grizzly heads.  I think they are great heads and will do the job well if placed in the right spot (same as most any other head).  But I want to discuss some ideas in research as they apply to this discussion.

Almost all studies, that are worth any value, will have a statement about its findings along the lines of "within the limitations of this study...".  Its a nod to the fact that all studies have some limitation or limitations.  Science is rarely settled because of these limitations.  There is almost always a variable that is left out or cannot be included.  Sometimes the variable is minor and sometimes it is major.

In research studies that are worth quoting, you must have a control.  In these studies, Dr. Ashby used different heads as pseudo controls.  I'm not sure he ever established that one type of head was the "gold standard" and was therefore the control head.  All research would be conducted as a comparison to the control.  He compared several heads without really establishing what the best "accepted" head was.  And one reason for that is that there is no real gold standard.  Its a very subjective area.

The second issue was bias.  He admitted this in some of his writing.  Good research starts with a null hypothesis.  In other words, the research should start with the idea that the item, procedure, etc... is no better or not more effective than the accepted gold standard you are comparing it to.  You shouldn't start any research project with the idea that the "new" item/procedure is better.  It adds bias. 

Third, and maybe more importantly to me, the biggest limitation is the use of a carcass vs a live animal.  Now, I understand that a study on live animals would never get approved but any reference to lethality is merely an assumption in a study that can't show it.  You can infer some things from these studies but there is no real data to suggest a difference.  In order to do this, you would have to take live animals and use a broadhead of each design and shoot it into a live animal of the same species and almost exact proportions from the same bow from the same distance from the same shooter in the same altitude, barometric pressure, etc... (you see where I'm going with this).  Until you do, you cannot say one is more lethal than the other.

These studies being carcass studies, you have to make assumptions from the data on lethality.  Same thing goes for lethality studies of common handgun calibers.  Some say, .45, some say .40, others are good with 9mm and some say .380 won't work.  But there are studies that will show a .22 is enough for self defense.  Surveys of some surgeons say they can't tell the difference between calibers on the operating table.

While we can draw the conclusion that a single bevel head is better at bone breaking than other types of heads on a carcass, we cannot draw that same conclusion about lethality because it wasn't measured. You cannot measure lethality on a carcass.  You can make assumptions and you can design further studies from it but its not a cause and effect relationship without all the data.  What we are left with is empirical data or data based on our own experiences and observations.

We hear all the time that light bows aren't enough.  Double bevel two blade heads aren't enough, etc.... Truth is, empirical data tells me they both work.  I've seen complete pass throughs with a 35-40 lb bow using two blade double bevel heads with good blood trails.  Just as we have all seen it with multiblade heads.  I have also seen poor penetration with the same setup.  I've watched videos of compound shooters shooting a well set up and tuned bow get minimal penetration that was lethal sometimes and sometimes not.

So, in sum, what we know empirically is sharp heads shot accurately into the vital areas of a game animal can be lethal.  I think we can empirically say a passthrough shot is better for tracking but not necessarily more lethal.  I think we can say multiblade heads give us a different wound channel.  We can say these things based on our experience or observations.  There is no doubt, from some of the photos we've seen on here of the exit wounds made by simmons heads, they can be devastating.  But those are not all the exit wounds that exist.  Same for 3 and 4 blade heads.  I've hunted with Terry and have no doubt those Zwickeys are lethal.  Its hard to argue their effectiveness when shot by a competent bowman into the vital section of an animal.  So, what I'm saying is, you do you and I'll do me.  In my world, I'm ok with two blade double bevel heads like the Simmons Sharks, Zwickeys, STOS, and 3 blades like the woodsman, VPA, and 4 blades like the Zwickey, Phathead, etc..., or two blade single bevel heads. Width is another variable that must be evaluated, but that's another post.  Get them sharp, shoot well, and eat up.

P.S. I should say that I'm with Terry on this.  If it isn't already obvious, I'm not buying the hype on narrow, single bevel heads.  I think they are effective but I don't think they are more effective than the other heads I can shoot.

For me it's simple, single bevel for lawnmower and bushhog blades, double bevel for knives and broadheads.

I was at a hunting camp in south Texas, the first weekend of the hunt there was a lot of hunters in camp , they were all shooting narrow single bevels as what the guide recommended . The first morning 8 javelina and a couple of hogs were shot one javelina was found and they discovered it after they had given up and were returning to the truck. Over the week they had about a 20% recovery . Heavy brush and no blood trails . My son and I shot 4 javelina and recovered all 4 we were shooting 125 gr. Snuffers. The one javelina that was found the first day was shot by the man camped next to us when I looked at the javi the hole from the arrow was such a small slit I don't think you could have hardly pushed a nickel though.

Comparing 3 and 4 blade blood trails to a two blade single bevel is hardly an apples to apples comparison.  A valid comparison would be comparing a Bear Razorhead without insert or a Zwickey Eskimo to a single bevel of the same width.  The fact that so many are not getting decent blood trails tells me it is due to poor shot placement, a less than shaving sharp broadhead, or more likely a combination of both.  Both single and double broadheads will kill and give good blood trails when you hit vitals and the broadhead is razor sharp.

.

In case it hasn't been said.....I don't think it is the single bevel that is the flaw. It's the 3:1 ratio

Quote from: Roger Norris on November 24, 2025, 05:01:24 PMIn case it hasn't been said.....I don't think it is the single bevel that is the flaw. It's the 3:1 ratio

Tell me more.

Quote from: TaterHill Archer on November 24, 2025, 08:59:31 PM

Quote from: Roger Norris on November 24, 2025, 05:01:24 PMIn case it hasn't been said.....I don't think it is the single bevel that is the flaw. It's the 3:1 ratio

Tell me more.

Long and narrow, creating a small hole.

I can't imagine how single bevel vs double could change the cut. I have killed LOTS of deer with 2 blade heads. But the ones that made great blood trails were WIDE....like the old Magnus heads. We used to call them "Flying Hatchets". And the Ace 200 grain head....it is 1 7/16 wide. I have a picture somewhere that LaClair took of the hole they made in a rib cage. Huge.

I think it was Howard Hill that started the 3:1 ratio concept. It certainly works for penetration, but the holes are too small.

Usually I am a Zwickey Delta user. With some kills using a long narrow Grizzly single bevel. I never noticed a difference in blood trails between the two. Or penetration. Both go completely through. I used the Deltas because common sense would tell you it's wider, more blood. I have had weak and great blood trails with both.
 I shot a buck using  the wide Tree Sharks this year. I had always wanted to try them. A single experience is not a scientific test, but I was really impressed with the blood trail and silent, easy penetration. Except for a spine hit or two, this was the shortest, fastest blood trail I ever had. It fell over in 25 yards and about 2 seconds. The buck was really played out and beat up from fighting when I shot it, but still. I will be "testing" Tree Sharks from now on! Matter of fact, I need to put them on my Christmas list right now.

I did have a VPA 3 blade in the quiver for windy days. The Treee Shark is vary wide.

 
Also, I dropped poundage this year from 60 to 51. But that thing went through effortlessly. I have used a compound at times on trips and I notice there is a benefit to a friction free slice when it comes to how far a deer runs. The smack of expandables makes them run. I shake my head at those tv shows where the buck runs wide open, out of sight across a huge cornfield. I bet most of us never have deer fun that far with a good hit.

Tedd

Shew, ain't even after deer season yet 😂 I've taken 3 deer with a No Mercy single bevel.  2 of the 3 had fantastic trails. 3rd it was a higher hit and lodged in shoulder. Zero blood trail, but heard her crash and was able to find the doe.  They were so easy to get razor sharp and I think that helps.  That said the vast majority of my deer have been taken with a Wensel Woodsman or a Simmons Shark of some kind with a smattering of VPA 3 blade.  They have always done really well. Of the 3 the VPA is easiest to sharpen(SO easy!), but really don't have a problem with any of them. 
If the SB are working for ya have at it. I do prefer a 3 blade or a wide 2 blade like a Simmons. They just flat work.  I took a doe last weekend with my Toelke Chinook 43# and a razor sharp VPA 3 blade.  Longish shot, complete pass thru and watched her drop in an about 40yds. Ridiculous blood. Shot placement, razor sharp head = no problems.  

Between elk, deer and pigs I'm north of 100 trad kills. Between my brother, dad and I I've probably been on blood trails of over 300 trad impacts and I've had a tracking dog for 7 years now so I'm on all sorts of blood trails. I've killed with zwickeys, zwickey no merceys, magnus single bevels, magnus stinger, cut throats, vpa single bevel, wensel woodsman 3 blade, abowyer whitetail, grizzly single bevels and double bevels and probably some more. My conclusions are as follows: Whatever is easiest to get sharp is the best and the long 3 to 1 ratio single bevels bend the easiest on heavy bone. I hunt elk with single bevel cutthroats and deer and pigs with whatever I feel like that is sharp. I can sharpen single bevel anythings way easier than double bevel anythings. I have never been able to get a 3 blade broadhead very sharp.

This thread has prompted a lot of info and will probably keep on coming..... opinions,  facts,  real world experience,  pros cons,  all of it!  This is what it's all about, the discussion! making the info and education available for people to process.   Ain't about a finite right or wrong,  that's for the individual to decide.  Thanks for the insight from all! 
This is a massive part of what makes a place like this such a valuable asset

The Ashby Study that so many talk about is so misunderstood.  The majority of the study is focused on maximizing penetration and breaking bone...not blood trails. Single bevel broadheads come in widths that range from the narrow 1" width that so many seem to despise to over 1.5", just like you find differences in double bevel widths.  We don't need to be scientists to figure out that a wide broadhead cuts more tissue than a narrow one or that a multi blade heads likely have more surface cutting area than a two blade and therefore opens a bigger wound channel for blood to exit, provided the depth of penetration is equal.  Single bevels, tanto tips, heavy arrow weights, high FOC are about maximizing penetration, not improving bloodtrails.  Dr. Ashby appears in many videos that can be found on Youtube where he discusses his studies, limitations of the study, and misconceptions that so many have.  It makes for interesting listening.

I started with single bevel grizzly heads and was able to get them sharp. I liked the penetration but sometimes the blood trails were sparse. Switched over to four blade phantoms, three blade razorcaps and three blade woodsmans. Blood trails were great. Then went to Palmer Extreme Cut four blade broadheads and blood trails were even better. I tried Simmons once a friend showed me how to sharpen them and they left amazing blood trails. Now I only use simmons for hogs but use woodsmans, phantoms and razorcaps for deer.

I was watching the latest thing that Jason put out on his Samko Trad channel on YOUTUBE. Some of you may know who I'm talking about...real popular bowhunter these days and a strong single bevel guy.

He said he wounded two bucks on his last midwest hunt with shoulder hits that had no penetration. He uses a 700+ grain arrow, 400 grains up front, shoots a 52 pound Northern Mist....and a single bevel head.

Jason blamed the lack of penetration on his 1.5" wide broadhead. I think he was spot on when he explained you can either have a devasting cuts from bigger heads OR bone buster performance from narrower heads... but you can't have both...or something to that effect.

I've mentioned it in the past both I have always used 1 1/8" cut two blade broadheads like Eskimo's, Razorheads, and Stingers and never have had any issues with the blood trails. My broadheads are to the extreme in sharpness and that fact promotes extreme blood loss when they are placed in the right spot. That's just how it works for me....your results may vary.

Or maybe he should shoot them behind the shoulder instead of on the shoulder. Just sayin!  .

Seriously, the few of these new "trad guy" influencer types I've seen on the tube all seem to want to shoot deer right on the front leg. Seems silly to me. Maybe a holdover from thier compound days?

R

I tried some single bevels a few years ago. One of them was extremely hard steel and hard to sharpen but held a good edge once I got them sharp. The other sharpened easier bit I never cared for the narrow width. After that I ended up going back to mt trusty Zwickey Deltas and No Mercy heads. Having dropped more bow weight since then I've come to rely on the No Mercy heads as my favorite.

As far as the poster above who comments about the guy who shot 2 deer in the shoulder and didn't get any penetration I'm of the same mind as Ryan. Don't shoot them in the shoulder!! Even when I shot a lot more weight back then (63#) I lost a couple with no penetration in the shoulder.

I love this thread.Talk to me about the 3:1 ratio. Why? Not just becasue Howard Hill said so....what is the physics? Why are so many broadheads roughly 3:1?

Howard Hill was clear about his preference for 3:1 heads based on his results but that pretty much died down until the Ashby papers. And, like JohnV mentioned, many misunderstood where Ashby was going with his work.

Whitetail deer don't need 24" of penetration. 12" or so gets a pass through on all but the largest deer. Black bears are not dangerous big-boned game. Pretty much any sharp broad head will do the trick on them. I've never hunted elk or moose but I'd probably be more concerned with arrow weight than what broad head I used.

I'll never hunt grizzlies or go to Africa but if I did I'd probably give more thought to my choice of broad head. But for my hunting Razorheads, Zwicky heads, Woodsman's, the old Magnus heads and similar heads work just fine. Maybe a wider head like a Simmons would give a better blood trail but that hasn't been a problem so far.