HH bug got me ... Part One!

ErikT · August 12, 2011, 08:59:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

QuoteOriginally posted by ErikT:
Can't get consistent with my NM Whisper at all. I've pulled a few decent groups but mostly 'm spraying arrows. It's also hurting/straining my fingers shooting 3 under for some reason. Out of frustration I picked up my old Bighorn recurve last night and installed 44# limbs and started drilling the target.
MANY factors involved. those 2 bows are different as night 'n' day. is the nm too short for yer draw length and/or too heavy of pull? do you have the right arras for it and its shelf cut? how's the grip on both? lots to consider .... [/b]

Rob,
Not too short for my draw. It's 64" and I'm drawing about 25" @ 50#. Straight grip. The arrows I've been shooting are 600 grains, and yes, they are a bit overspined but I've been able to pull off a few real nice groups at times but I can't find the variable. There's a consistency issue as well as lots of string vibration and relative noise after the shot (not hand shock). This thing is not what I'd consider quiet at all at various brace heights. (The maker recommends 7 to 7 1/4"). I'm shooting 3 under and my lower finger is feeling a lot of "strain" even though I concentrate on making the string pressure even all the way across. Nock point is about 3/8" above center.

This is a real nice bow. I'm not knocking the bow at all. I just can't figure out how to shoot it well.

Rob DiStefano · August 12, 2011, 09:06:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by ErikT:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

QuoteOriginally posted by ErikT:
Can't get consistent with my NM Whisper at all. I've pulled a few decent groups but mostly 'm spraying arrows. It's also hurting/straining my fingers shooting 3 under for some reason. Out of frustration I picked up my old Bighorn recurve last night and installed 44# limbs and started drilling the target.
MANY factors involved. those 2 bows are different as night 'n' day. is the nm too short for yer draw length and/or too heavy of pull? do you have the right arras for it and its shelf cut? how's the grip on both? lots to consider .... [/b]
Rob,
Not too short for my draw. It's 64" and I'm drawing about 25" @ 50#. Straight grip. The arrows I've been shooting are 600 grains, and yes, they are a bit overspined but I've been able to pull off a few real nice groups at times but I can't find the variable. There's a consistency issue as well as lots of string vibration and relative noise after the shot (not hand shock). This thing is not what I'd consider quiet at all at various brace heights. (The maker recommends 7 to 7 1/4"). I'm shooting 3 under and my lower finger is feeling a lot of "strain" even though I concentrate on making the string pressure even all the way across. Nock point is about 3/8" above center.

This is a real nice bow. I'm not knocking the bow at all. I just can't figure out how to shoot it well. [/b]

are the arrows consistent/stable? carbon?

perhaps it's a tillering issue, since you mentioned the lower finger strain?

lower the brace height to 6-1/2" raise the nock point to 3/4" and have a go.

ErikT · August 12, 2011, 09:12:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

QuoteOriginally posted by ErikT:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

quote:
Originally posted by ErikT:
Can't get consistent with my NM Whisper at all. I've pulled a few decent groups but mostly 'm spraying arrows. It's also hurting/straining my fingers shooting 3 under for some reason. Out of frustration I picked up my old Bighorn recurve last night and installed 44# limbs and started drilling the target.
MANY factors involved. those 2 bows are different as night 'n' day. is the nm too short for yer draw length and/or too heavy of pull? do you have the right arras for it and its shelf cut? how's the grip on both? lots to consider .... [/b]
Rob,
Not too short for my draw. It's 64" and I'm drawing about 25" @ 50#. Straight grip. The arrows I've been shooting are 600 grains, and yes, they are a bit overspined but I've been able to pull off a few real nice groups at times but I can't find the variable. There's a consistency issue as well as lots of string vibration and relative noise after the shot (not hand shock). This thing is not what I'd consider quiet at all at various brace heights. (The maker recommends 7 to 7 1/4"). I'm shooting 3 under and my lower finger is feeling a lot of "strain" even though I concentrate on making the string pressure even all the way across. Nock point is about 3/8" above center.

This is a real nice bow. I'm not knocking the bow at all. I just can't figure out how to shoot it well. [/b]
are the arrows consistent/stable? carbon?

perhaps it's a tillering issue, since you mentioned the lower finger strain?

lower the brace height to 6-1/2" raise the nock point to 3/4" and have a go.

Rob, I'll give that a try. The arrows are surewood shafts. What would lowering the brace height do?

Rob DiStefano · August 12, 2011, 09:16:00 AM

QuoteRob, I'll give that a try. The arrows are surewood shafts. What would lowering the brace height do?

are you sure those surewoods are very well matched? try more consistent arrows of carbon or alum. or at least number the surewoods and keep track of where each lands on the butt.

for one thing, lowering the brace height will lessen the limb movement.

ErikT · August 12, 2011, 09:35:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

QuoteRob, I'll give that a try. The arrows are surewood shafts. What would lowering the brace height do?
are you sure those surewoods are very well matched? try more consistent arrows of carbon or alum. or at least number the surewoods and keep track of where each lands on the butt.

for one thing, lowering the brace height will lessen the limb movement. [/b]

I don't have a spine tester but guess the surewoods are as "matched" as they come. I will try your suggestion on brace ht. Perhaps the pressure point on the grip is the culprit? I read you quote below from page 205 of this thread. If so, If I could find it, would entertaint the idea of wrapping the grip with a turn of leather as suggested.

""you can use this type of single pressure point grip with most any type of handle grip - straight, dished, soft locator or recurve pistol. all serious target archers use a single pressure point grip. it's simply the most consistent of all ways of shaking hands with a bow handle. there is NO reason why a bowhunter couldn't/shouldn't employ this same single pressure point grip style. there's nothing unwieldy about it that excludes the bowhunting community and *many* bowhunters use it - some without even knowing.

it is easier to find that pressure spot with a soft locator grip. you can wrap a straight grip with one turn of 1/8" leather right under where your pressure is located for quicker reference, as mentioned by mr. asbell.""

Nate Steen . · August 12, 2011, 10:02:00 AM

Erik,

alot depends on how the bow was tillered...

you said it has a straight grip. Usually those are designed for full hand pressure to get proper tiller out of the lower limb (because usually it's shorter than the top limb on a Hill style bow). Try gripping with your full hand, paying attention to gripping alittle tighter with the pinky and ring fingers... Some bows this isn't as critical, but usually, unless you had a long discussion with the bowyer, a straight grip is for full hand pressure. Contoured grips like your Bighorn are designed for small contact hand pressure. A bowyer can make a Hill style bow for small contact hand pressure, but it means retillering the lower limb alot and not something usually done.

Rob DiStefano · August 12, 2011, 10:16:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by ErikT:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

QuoteRob, I'll give that a try. The arrows are surewood shafts. What would lowering the brace height do?
are you sure those surewoods are very well matched? try more consistent arrows of carbon or alum. or at least number the surewoods and keep track of where each lands on the butt.

for one thing, lowering the brace height will lessen the limb movement. [/b]
I don't have a spine tester but guess the surewoods are as "matched" as they come. I will try your suggestion on brace ht. Perhaps the pressure point on the grip is the culprit? I read you quote below from page 205 of this thread. If so, If I could find it, would entertaint the idea of wrapping the grip with a turn of leather as suggested.

""you can use this type of single pressure point grip with most any type of handle grip - straight, dished, soft locator or recurve pistol. all serious target archers use a single pressure point grip. it's simply the most consistent of all ways of shaking hands with a bow handle. there is NO reason why a bowhunter couldn't/shouldn't employ this same single pressure point grip style. there's nothing unwieldy about it that excludes the bowhunting community and *many* bowhunters use it - some without even knowing.

it is easier to find that pressure spot with a soft locator grip. you can wrap a straight grip with one turn of 1/8" leather right under where your pressure is located for quicker reference, as mentioned by mr. asbell."" [/b]

firstly, heed well what nate has just typed. bow tiller is extremely important, but may not necessarily be your problem, or only problem.

woodies can be (or are!) very temperamental little birds. and woodie spine criteria is NOT 360 degrees around the shaft. i'll betcha if yer woodies were shot out of a machine there would be some inconsistencies. not at all knocking woodies! i almost use them exclusively these dayze! just saying they are *typically* not as consistent as carbs or alums.

as to the bow's handle and how you grip it, only you can decide what is best. and surely the way the bow was built with regards to limb tiller and handle pressure point are paramount! you have free will permission to experiment! :D

Nate Steen . · August 12, 2011, 10:28:00 AM

well said Rob....

wooodies can be a problem.....the old target archers of the 40s and 50s would spine each shaft to the stiffest spine, irrelevant to where the grain was running....

Steve Clandinin · August 12, 2011, 10:33:00 AM

Great info here fellas.It sure has helped me in MY shooting.For a bow that looks so simple it has so many variables.

Rob DiStefano · August 12, 2011, 10:37:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
... wooodies can be a problem.....the old target archers of the 40s and 50s would spine each shaft to the stiffest spine, irrelevant to where the grain was running....

precisely why all woodies need to FIRST be straightened, then spine metered and marked for proper nock location!

they need to be WELL SEALED, as moisture, or lack thereof, can play havoc with how a woodie shoots out of a particular bow and how it flies. still, for all their faults, and because we're not target archers shooting beyond 25/30 yards, there is something *magical* about the flight of a WOODIE as it flies toward the kill zone of a critter.

Buckhorn47 · August 12, 2011, 10:49:00 AM

Amen!! Rob

David Mitchell · August 12, 2011, 10:51:00 AM

Erik, I have my Whisper brace height set up higher rather than lower. Mine is at 7 1/2" and shoots very quietly and only a slight bump on release and no other hand shock or vibration after the shot. Try going higher rather than lower. I am convinced that this bow is an animal of a different stripe than my Hill style bows. It doesn't quite fit the usual longbow parameters regarding set up and tune. I can shoot about any arrow I have out of it and it is not picky at all about that. As mentioned, you can't shoot a straight grip longbow like a recurve.

David Mitchell · August 12, 2011, 10:56:00 AM

I would also mention that my Whisper is 64" long and I normally shoot longbows in the 66-68" range, but due to the reverse handle on the Whisper I have not one problem with finger pinch even though I draw longer than you do--28".

Looper · August 12, 2011, 11:23:00 AM

Erik, try shooting it with a split finger grip and see what happens. That should get rid of that buzz. It sounds to me like you're overloading that lower limb. I, for one, don't like to shoot 3 under. I get that same buzz with every bow I have, if I try it. Now, to be fair, I haven't really tried to work it out, but I shoot well enough with a split grip to not need to and have no reason to switch.

As far as the arrows go, as long as they are straight, and not terribly far from the spine range you need, you should be able to get a descent grouping with them. Now, your group may not be centered on your target, but they should still group together. One thing that will throw a group out of whack is if the arrows are hitting the riser. Do you hear a click or a clack upon release? If you do, the spine could be way off. Also, if your nocking point is too low, the arrows could be hitting the shelf. If the arrow hits the riser, you'll get terrible accuracy.

I'd bet, however, that things will improve if you switch to a split grip.

ErikT · August 12, 2011, 02:03:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by looper:
Erik, try shooting it with a split finger grip and see what happens. That should get rid of that buzz. It sounds to me like you're overloading that lower limb.
I'd bet, however, that things will improve if you switch to a split grip.

Looper,
One problem there is I now shoot 3-under.
I shot split finger my whole life but swtiched to 3-under last year and cant go back :rolleyes:

But I agree, the lower limb FEELS and SOUNDS like it's being overloaded! I asked Steve to tiller it for 3-under when I had it built but the bow has a definite BUZZ when shot.
Rob,
I know what you are saying about the wooden arrows. These are nice sticks though. I aligned the nock against he grain as usual but did not go so far as to find the actual spine side and work against that.

Rob DiStefano · August 12, 2011, 02:08:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by ErikT:
Rob,
I know what you are saying about the wooden arrows. These are nice sticks though. I aligned the nock against he grain as usual but did not go so far as to find the actual spine side and work against that.

fwiw, i've never seen a 'matched' set of woodies that spined exactly the same at 90deg to the grain - as what nate said. after straightening, if you put all yer woodies on a spine meter, orienting the nock, i'll bet you'll get quite a variance.

Looper · August 12, 2011, 02:30:00 PM

Erik, I hear you, but just shoot it split and see if that solves it. Don't worry about the accuracy, just see if it eliminates the buzz. If it does, you'll probably need to get the bow retillered. Maybe moving your nock point higher will help, but it might not. When going from split to 3under, you're essentially moving the pressure point down on the string 3/4 to 1". Some bows are more forgiving of that than others. Ideally, to compensate, you need to move your nock point up an equal amount. You'll need to build your arrow rest up, too. Of course, if you have 1/2" of buildup on your arrow rest, you might want to weigh whether or not to trade the bow for one that fit you better.

Do you have a tillering tree? If not, they're easy to build. You can use it to see exactly what your bow is tillered for.

ErikT · August 12, 2011, 02:35:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by looper:

Do you have a tillering tree? If not, they're easy to build. You can use it to see exactly what your bow is tillered for.

No, I don't have a tillering stick. Let me know if you can refer to plans for making one.
Thanks

Looper · August 12, 2011, 03:24:00 PM

I just made mine out of a 2x4 and some scraps. I made a padded leather "saddle" to put the bow in and a ring on the bottom to pull a cord through. Pretty simple.

To check the tiller, you need to be able to see how the limbs return to the brace height. I place the bow in the holder and position it so that the pressure point is where the pressure of my grip would be. I use a piece of inner tube to hold the bow in place.

I then place the hook on string where my middle finger would be. I also padded the hook with duct tape so that it's the same diameter as my finger.

When I pull on the rope and flex the limbs, it is pretty clear how the limbs return to the brace height. What I look for is for the tips to reach that point at the same time. If one is off, or reaches brace earlier than the other, the bow will have hand shock.

It's also surprising to see how much of an effect putting pressure on different parts of the grip has on the timing.

I'm building a tree for a buddy this weekend. I'll post some pics of it.

bicster · August 12, 2011, 03:27:00 PM

Erik,
I was having the same problem shooting woodies. I finally just made a batch of carbons to see if I could find any consistency and presto! I started shooting tight groups again. I love the wood shafts but I needed to see if a consistent shaft material would produce different results.