High FOC.. help me understand..

[DanielB89]

I have watched the videos of how a high EFOC arrow will SOME HOW travel farther than an arrow with a lower FOC. But, how in the world is this possible?

[ChuckC]

I'm not smart enough to know the answer.  All hocus pocus to me.  Something to do with the weight up front pulling the arrow instead of the weight distribution pushing it (I think).  I am waiting to learn as well.

Research flight shooting,  I am guessing whatever they use is the way to go for farthest flight.
Chuckc

[Zradix]

part of it is more efficient flight by getting the arrow out of paradox quicker.

...but you really need to pay attention to the vids as some of them have heavier arrows that can/somethimes also fly farther.

[Pete McMiller]

All things being equal - it doesn't.  If mass, velocity, gravity and EFFICIENCY OF FLIGHT are the same it can't. But all things aren't equal and the issue is the efficiency of the arrow's flight.  EFOC and UEFOC with a perfectly spined arrow is a much more efficient projectile than an arrow that isn't tuned.  In addition, in order to overcome many of the issues with an arrow that isn't perfectly spined, many go with very big and long fletching with a high level of helical - both of those items alone will take away from the efficiency.  For many folks that's OK because we realize that within the ranges that we normally shoot, we aren't going to notice enough of a difference to make the change.

In my case I recently went from EFOC of 23% to UEFOC of 31.6% and everybody I shoot with comments on my arrow flight IF I do everything right with my form, release, etc.

I am a self admitted arrow/tuning geek so for me it's a fun exersize.  For other folks it's not - to each his own.

[DanielB89]

my reason for asking is, I am about to change arrow set ups.  My current arrows are just too heavy for my liking.  They are Beman MFX .340's that are 11.2 gpi which puts my arrow weight right about 575 on a #53 bow.  I know everyone will say, "that's great!", but I for one do NOT like a heavy arrow.  I like my arrows right about 9 gpp. and this is closer to 11(10.8).  

I am wanting to swap to an arrow that is 7.2 gpi which will drop my about 120 grains, arrow alone.  Then  I will add a little more weight and get to exactly 9gpp, about 475 grains.  

and that would put my about FOC closer to 20, which is now about 14.  

Do you guys think this will have a substantial impact on trajectory?

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
All things being equal - it doesn't.  If mass, velocity, gravity and EFFICIENCY OF FLIGHT are the same it can't. But all things aren't equal and the issue is the efficiency of the arrow's flight.  EFOC and UEFOC with a perfectly spined arrow is a much more efficient projectile than an arrow that isn't tuned.  In addition, in order to overcome many of the issues with an arrow that isn't perfectly spined, many go with very big and long fletching with a high level of helical - both of those items alone will take away from the efficiency.  For many folks that's OK because we realize that within the ranges that we normally shoot, we aren't going to notice enough of a difference to make the change.

In my case I recently went from EFOC of 23% to UEFOC of 31.6% and everybody I shoot with comments on my arrow flight IF I do everything right with my form, release, etc.

I am a self admitted arrow/tuning geek so for me it's a fun exersize.  For other folks it's not - to each his own.

Pete,
Can you tell me your arrow set up?  the more details, the better!!1    

[Zradix]

shooting an arrow that's about 82% of your previous weight will make a difference ...but not so much you couldn't get used to it quickly.

[ChuckC]

I am thinking it would be fine and whatever it does you would adjust.
CHuckC

[Pete McMiller]

Daniel,

Bow is a 60#@28" 66" R/D - 8 strand D10 string.  My draw length is 27.5"

Arrow is a Victory VForce HV V6 300 cut to 29.625" + 100 grain brass insert. Either 300 grain field tips or 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak.  Assembled with JB Weld.  Fletchings are 3" A&A style (I just cut the back end off of a 4" parabolic at 90 degrees).

Total arrow wt. varies a bit from 648 to 653 grains probably dependant on how much fletching glue and JB Weld I used.

I tried the VForce HV 350's first but despite the results of other folks, I just couldn't get them to fly right unless I went all the way down to 175 grain field tips.  Since my goal was UEFOC they didn't have enough tip weight.

[Kris]

Daniel,

My bow weight is 54#@28" and I shoot MFX 340's  out of my 3 piece ACS longbow.  These arrows do end up "heavier" and I use them when I want a setup over 600 grains.  Lately though, like yourself, I have gone lighter, 500 - 575 gpi.  

Try the 340 Axis shafts that are unwrapped w/o wood graphics, they are nice compromise  at 9.3 grains/inch.  Maybe not as light as you would like yet...try the V6 300 or 350 shafts from Victory...that is what Pete (300's) is using.  Pete and I have great discussions Re: subj.  

Any number of really good combinations one can arrive at using these excellent components.  I am always experimenting and always finding out new things that keep it forever interesting for me.

Kris

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,

Bow is a 60#@28" 66" R/D - 8 strand D10 string.  My draw length is 27.5"

Arrow is a Victory VForce HV V6 300 cut to 29.625" + 100 grain brass insert. Either 300 grain field tips or 75 gr. adapter + 235 gr. Grizzly Kodiak.  Assembled with JB Weld.  Fletchings are 3" A&A style (I just cut the back end off of a 4" parabolic at 90 degrees).

Total arrow wt. varies a bit from 648 to 653 grains probably dependant on how much fletching glue and JB Weld I used.

I tried the VForce HV 350's first but despite the results of other folks, I just couldn't get them to fly right unless I went all the way down to 175 grain field tips.  Since my goal was UEFOC they didn't have enough tip weight.

Pete,
Seems like you are the guy i am supposed to be talking to.      

So my question is,
do you think i should get the 350's or the 300's for a BW that is #53@28, i draw to 28.5?

I guess the question would be, how much FOC really helps?  

Would you possibly have a full length .350 I could buy from you do try out?  

I notice that you are still over 10gpp.  I wouldn't mind going up to about 9.5 or so, but don't care at all to be at 10 gpp.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Kris:
Daniel,

My bow weight is 54#@28" and I shoot MFX 340's  out of my 3 piece ACS longbow.  These arrows do end up "heavier" and I use them when I want a setup over 600 grains.  Lately though, like yourself, I have gone lighter, 500 - 575 gpi.  

Try the 340 Axis shafts that are unwrapped w/o wood graphics, they are nice compromise  at 9.3 grains/inch.  Maybe not as light as you would like yet...try the V6 300 or 350 shafts from Victory...that is what Pete (300's) is using.  Pete and I have great discussions Re: subj.  

Any number of really good combinations one can arrive at using these excellent components.  I am always experimenting and always finding out new things that keep it forever interesting for me.

Kris

Chris,

If you need some MFX's with the wood grain, let me know.  I have 12 that I am trying to get rid of.  I also have some of the plain black ones, but even they come in at 10.2gpi.  

I know they no longer make the MFX shafts, so I could be your man to get a good supply!    .  


I am just wanting a lighter arrow for better trajectory.  My arrows are great out to 20, but past that, things begin to drop off quickly.  Not to mention, I believe any game in North america can be killed with a 450 grain arrow.  

[Pete McMiller]

Daniel,

Yes, I am around 11 gpi but that is better than the 12 I had last year.  My goal was two fold, an arrow with UEFOC and an arrow the was at or over 650 grains.  According to Dr. Ashby, 650 grains is the threshold to guarantee heavy bone breaching.  This is primarily an arrow for an upcoming moose hunt - though the arrow I shot last year penetrated a cow moose fully.

If I were you I would try the Vforce HV 350's as I think the 300s would be too stiff.  The 300's are 7.2 gpi while the 350s are 6.8 gpi.  I have never tried the 400s.

Does increase FOC help?  Yes in both penetration and arrow flight.

Certainly a 450 grain arrow can kill anything in NA - so can a 243 but neither is optimal for the largest game.

I am reluctant to get rid of any Victory shafts at the moment - I am expecting a new bow any week now and I think the half a doz. 350's are going to work great for it.  If you shop around you can find them for a good price easily cheaper than Carbon Express.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Pete McMiller:
Daniel,

Yes, I am around 11 gpi but that is better than the 12 I had last year.  My goal was two fold, an arrow with UEFOC and an arrow the was at or over 650 grains.  According to Dr. Ashby, 650 grains is the threshold to guarantee heavy bone breaching.  This is primarily an arrow for an upcoming moose hunt - though the arrow I shot last year penetrated a cow moose fully.

If I were you I would try the Vforce HV 350's as I think the 300s would be too stiff.  The 300's are 7.2 gpi while the 350s are 6.8 gpi.  I have never tried the 400s.

Does increase FOC help?  Yes in both penetration and arrow flight.

Certainly a 450 grain arrow can kill anything in NA - so can a 243 but neither is optimal for the largest game.

I am reluctant to get rid of any Victory shafts at the moment - I am expecting a new bow any week now and I think the half a doz. 350's are going to work great for it.  If you shop around you can find them for a good price easily cheaper than Carbon Express.

That is true.  My only concern is that with the .350's when I add all the weight needed, they will come out too weak.  With the .350's, it is looking like I will need to add about 275 grains up front to reach my goal weight.  Do you believe that this will make the arrows too weak?  

I think the bottom line is i will just have to buy a shaft of each and see which one I can get to tune.

[Rob DiStefano]

imho, and in the long run, assuming a super sharp broadhead is used in conjunction with good arrow flight, then consistent arrow placement under hunting conditions will always trump a "hot rodded" arrow.  

if it takes a buncha up-front weight to make a shaft fly really well, under hunting conditions, then so be it.  

if the foc is greatly upped just for the sake of some thinking that sez high foc is THAT much better than low foc, and the resulting high foc arrow doesn't fly as well as the low foc arrow, who are we kidding?  just looking to keep things in some measure of perspective.

the foc, efoc, uefoc, lmnop - all that stuff is ancillary to a well placed shot on game, with a good flying arrow that carries a really sharp c.o.c. broadhead.

how much better, if at all, is higher foc?  there are a buncha good test that say it's definitely better.  however, we all need to keep in mind that tons of game have fallen to low 9% foc arrows, and if that low foc arrow flies well and the bowhunter does things right, well, game over.

ymmv.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
imho, and in the long run, assuming a super sharp broadhead is used in conjunction with good arrow flight, then consistent arrow placement under hunting conditions will always trump a "hot rodded" arrow.  

if it takes a buncha up-front weight to make a shaft fly really well, under hunting conditions, then so be it.  

if the foc is greatly upped just for the sake of some thinking that sez high foc is THAT much better than low foc, and the resulting high foc arrow doesn't fly as well as the low foc arrow, who are we kidding?  just looking to keep things in some measure of perspective.

the foc, efoc, uefoc, lmnop - all that stuff is ancillary to a well placed shot on game, with a good flying arrow that carries a really sharp c.o.c. broadhead.

how much better, if at all, is higher foc?  there are a buncha good test that say it's definitely better.  however, we all need to keep in mind that tons of game have fallen to low 9% foc arrows, and if that low foc arrow flies well and the bowhunter does things right, well, game over.

ymmv.

Rob,
you make a lot of great points.  I guess I am just trying to make me an arrow that has a little more speed and better trajectory.    I am not trying to make a "hot-rod" arrow, as my finished weight will still be around or above 9gpp, but I am trying to help with trajectory.  

I also understand that no arrow in the world is as good as an arrow placed in the right spot.  Me dropping my weight(not to a low weight, just to a lighter weight) is all for an attempt to help me hit that right spot.  If an animal is at 25 yards, i want it to hit its spot.  

I shoot a lot of competitions and always shoot my hunting arrows.  Now, we all know that 3d tourneys aren't always a hunting shot, etc.  But I noticed that at the farther distances(25+), i would have to compensate more than I was use to compensating.  Though I may not shoot at a deer at 30 yards, if a deer is at 30 and everything feels "right", I want an arrow that i have to make minimal adjustments to get it where I need it.  

I hope all that made sense.

[Rob DiStefano]

imho, trad bowhunting is Nothing like playing target games, even 3D games.  they're 180 degrees different.  but, i understand the functional need for a flatter arrow at longer HUNTING distances. so, from my personal perspective, hunting trumps target games.  

so, the question then becomes, what is your safe long distance shot on deer-size game?  will going to a faster arrow w/lower trajectory help the hunting as well as the 3D?  will that 25-30yd shot on a deer feel to you as confident as that 15yd shot?  if it's 'yes', then yer good to go.  if it's 'maybe', well, maybe you need a hunting arrow and a 3D arrow.

[JimB]

Daniel,you definitely don't want the .300's.I use the Victory V Force HV .350's out of a 53# bow and cut to 30",I need app. 425 grs on the front.That makes a 65o gr arrow.Cut to 29",I need a little over 500 grs up front.That makes a 728 gr arrow.The FOC is way up there but obviously,you wouldn't like the overall weight.

If you want to compare two shafts,I would get .400's and .350's.I find the Victory .350's to act stiffer than Gold Tip .340's and if your current shafts are thinner in diameter than the Victorys,that can make them act stiffer yet.

I would be shocked if you could get a 30" Victory to tune with only 275 grs on the front.My draw length is similar to yours,possibly a little longer.You don't want the .300's!I really believe you should try a .400.

[RedShaft]

Did you ever see the new style nerf footballs that are heavy in the front with the tail(fletching) on the back? Whistle too..
I watched kids other day at the field throwing them a football field length with ease.
They had reg foot ball and only threw it 30- 40 yards at the longest. Btw. They r Fun to throw  Same concept.

[DanielB89]

Originally posted by JimB:
Daniel,you definitely don't want the .300's.I use the Victory V Force HV .350's out of a 53# bow and cut to 30",I need app. 425 grs on the front.That makes a 65o gr arrow.Cut to 29",I need a little over 500 grs up front.That makes a 728 gr arrow.The FOC is way up there but obviously,you wouldn't like the overall weight.

If you want to compare two shafts,I would get .400's and .350's.I find the Victory .350's to act stiffer than Gold Tip .340's and if your current shafts are thinner in diameter than the Victorys,that can make them act stiffer yet.

I would be shocked if you could get a 30" Victory to tune with only 275 grs on the front.My draw length is similar to yours,possibly a little longer.You don't want the .300's!I really believe you should try a .400.

Jim,
I have had the time of my life getting arrows to tune.  a 30.5" .340 spined bare shaft arrow with 175 grains up front flies like a dart.  So that is what I was going by.

I know this seems like a really stiff arrow for a #53 bow, but it is all I can get to work.  

On all my bows, I always have a heavy spined arrow.  on a #45 sammick sage, i had to use a .400 spined arrow and even build out the shelf some to make it bareshaft well.