Exotic laminate performance?

First Up · February 06, 2014, 07:21:00 AM

I would like to order a custom bow soon and I am curious about bow performance with different exotic laminates. I know the outer laminate is primarily for overall appearance however I would like to know if there is a difference in performance with different outer laminates. I am assuming that everything else is equal such as the manufacture, draw weight, core laminates and riser wood. For example, is there a difference in speed between a bow with myrtle limbs and a bow with bocote limbs? I know that structurally a spalted laminate is not as strong as a non-spalted laminate but has anybody noticed a difference in performance between the two? It would be interesting to me if someone has two bows built with the same specs except for different outer laminates and could give a comparison evaluation. I would also appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Thank you.

Will Cocke 2 · February 06, 2014, 07:56:00 AM

I have two bows with the exact same specs one is black and white ebony one is myrtle. I cannot tell a difference at all. I could not imagine it being more than 1 maybe 2 fps. I would just pick whatever veneer you are most happy with. Performance wise would make no difference.

BigJim · February 06, 2014, 08:11:00 AM

When I build a bow, I use veneers between .020 and .025"s thick. They are insignificant in affecting performance or feel of how a bow shoots.

I have used most every imaginable type of wood in veneers and have never had a veneer fail. Some of these veneers were so fragile i could barely get them glued and would keep a matching back up ready in case I broke one gluing.

Choose the wood you want to look at and you'll be happy.
good luck, bigjim

Stumpkiller · February 06, 2014, 12:25:00 PM

What Big Jim and WidowDL said.

It's like choosing the bumper stickers and pinstriping that will make your car faster.

In theory the lighter/less dense wood laminate would improve performance because it doesn't contribute to strength but does add weight. Be a tiny amount most likely.

katman · February 06, 2014, 07:26:00 PM

Listen to Big Jim, "Choose the wood you want to look at and you'll be happy"

You could have two identical bows built by same bowyer and may see a performance difference between them, just goes with using natural materials and there idiosyncrasies.

Sixby · February 07, 2014, 12:41:00 AM

Makes a speed difference in my bows. 3 to five fps with the heavy exotics compared to light woods like myrtle, maple , walnut, zebra, elm , ect. If a person buying one wants a top speed bow then I recommend the lighter weights.
I grind all my veneers to .o15 to keep them from effecting performance. Not necessary probably but I do that anyway. Exception is when the wood is a good performance wood which I would use for core with no problem, such as zebra and tigerwood.
I would imagine that different bow designs and different pursuits would change this but its true in my bow designs.
Macassar has been a real poor performer for me. It has consistently given me bows that shoot 5 fps or even more slower than my same bows built with different woods. I avoid it and rosewood and cocabola and bocate pretty much in the limbs.
This is simply an opinion based on my personal experiences.
God bless, Steve

Flying Dutchman · February 07, 2014, 02:05:00 AM

I just do as Big Jim said. I also wonder if you have two exactly the same bows, build by the same bowyer, they shoot also at the same speed.... But that could be my ignorance... I can imagine there will be always a few fps difference...

Uncle Buck · February 07, 2014, 04:50:00 AM

2-3 FPS? I wouldn't lose any sleep over that.

overbo · February 07, 2014, 07:00:00 AM

Also those darker woods Steve mentions, are more likely to show imperfections in the finish of the limbs.
I would think the amount of glue used would have more of an effect on performance than the type of wood veneer.

BigJim · February 07, 2014, 07:34:00 AM

Too much worry over nothing.

BIgJim

katman · February 07, 2014, 07:54:00 AM

Jim, do you find the darker woods show the glass imperfections more than lighter?

Also all bowyers opinion do you find this true "You could have two identical bows built by same bowyer and may see a performance difference between them, just goes with using natural materials and there idiosyncrasies."

Sixby · February 07, 2014, 11:30:00 AM

A little here and a little there makes a lot. If you pick up three fps here and three there it becomes 10 and that is a large percentage. There is not a lot of room in my estimation for improvement in performance with the bows being b uilt today and I feel like I have to take it where I can find it.

As too dark limbs. I have had more trouble with certain woods and it seems to have more to do with the wood itself over the darkness of the wood. For instance walnut. I can put English and Paradox under glass and have it turn out perfect. I have had problems with Claro and Black though.Tiny little spots seem to appear about from a week to a month under the glass with them. Some would not even notice them but it drives me nuts. No pun intended.
Actually I have turned out perfect limbs with Paradox and Macassar. The mac has just always been a bit slower when chronographed.
Light spots and glass imperfections always show up more with dark backgrounds though. What is obnoxious with a light background is completely unacceptable with a dark background.
God bless, Steve

February 07, 2014, 02:42:00 PM

In the case of Howard Hill Archery, they are part of the power lams, not just ornamental. In those cases I would put my money on yew, juniper, elm or locust. I have always liked the locust look, but I am afraid it would be a bit bright, as it kind of looks like a fresh deer rub.

md126 · February 07, 2014, 06:49:00 PM

I've had bows with lots of different lams. some were great shooters. only one, macassar ebony, was noticeably slower. that bow was chrono'd and was 10-15fps slower than the same make bows with similar specs. I have limbs now for my schafer with no veneer and they are by far the best shooting limbs I have.

and I also believe each custom bow made by hand will shoot differently than each other, if only slightly

warden415 · February 07, 2014, 07:08:00 PM

Interesting about the macassar. I am a novice bow maker and while I believe there may not be a huge difference from one wood to the other, I have no doubts there has to be some difference. It comes down to physics and weight. I agree with Sixby that a few feet here and a few there make a difference. Also the less physical weight I believe would reduce handshock and or vibration?

Gator1 · February 07, 2014, 07:37:00 PM

Md126

Tell me about your Schaefer limb core etc?...

Is that why colored glass is a bit quicker without a decorative veneer???

First Up · February 07, 2014, 08:40:00 PM

Thank you for all your comments. I am finding this very interesting. I am curious what the weight difference would be between a finished limb of macassar versus myrtle or maple?

BigJim · February 08, 2014, 08:36:00 AM

The average difference of weight between macassar veneer (heavy) and a maple veneer(medium to light)in the working portion of the limb in a 62" longbow is only about .2 ounces. You must consider that this includes both belly and back of limb. The weight is distributed throughout the entire working limb when in reality, the majority of limb "speed and shock" is manufactured through the design of the outer third.
This is a comparison of limbs with veneers and not tapers made from exotics.
I have done tests in mine when I reduced my veneer thickness by 20% and had no diffenece in performance via a shooting machine and chronograph.
BigJIm

First Up · February 08, 2014, 11:23:00 AM

That is very interesting. Thanks Big Jim.

Sixby · February 08, 2014, 03:26:00 PM

I certainly cannot disagree nor would wish to with what Jim is saying.

However Regardless of weight and all of the other logical reasons for it not making a difference , it does. At least in my bows that I build.

For instance I have a great customer that insisted on Mac veneers. I told him it may cause the bow to be slower than normal for my bows. He insisted. I built it and I built it in my normal fashion. Veneers were ground to .015. cores were foam cores and bow was double carbon.

It underperformed by a bit over 5 fps from my norm when Kirk Chronographed it with his Hooter shooter.

The customer ordered another bow and I talked him into a fancy set of black myrtle limbs. He is very happy with that bow and if he reads this he may wish to comment.

I am not saying the bow with the macassar was slow. Just not as fast. I have not only seen this phenomenon several times with bows I have built but I have heard other bowyers claim the same experience. Bows that will normally shoot in the high 190s and even some in the 200s going to the high 180s or low 190 in exactly the same poundage and build and all being very accurately tested.
Grind on my veneers is 80 grit on the glass side and 60 on the back side. All other laminations are 60 grit. I am very consistant in the build and glue process and believe the bows were as accurately made to same specs as humanly possible.

God bless, Steve