Back to square one

[Iowabowhunter]

Had hunted with the Hoyt Super Rest this deer season when I took out my stickbow- wasn't a fan so back to the drawing board. I had originally used the rest as I was told it would help clean up my poor release.

I purchased Tom Clum's shooting class/clinic deal, going to spend the next couple months figuring out what I'm doing wrong form wise & get that corrected. I'm sure that me chasing my tail tuning while also not having perfect form isn't going to help anything & just cause further frustrations.

In the meantime, rest is getting ripped off & I got some new strike plate material on the way. I am positive it's possible to get great arrow flight off the shelf, and am determined to make it happen.

I went down a tuning rabbit hole, and now am worried that my 2doz + arrows & multiple 200 grain heads are going to be too stiff (had to bump up the brace height to 8.5" to get a good hole through paper), which is 1-1.25" higher than what Brian recommends.

I have to say, as many contraptions that are on my compound, having worked in a shop as long as I did I'm much more comfortable tuning them. Not nearly as fun to shoot however.

[Roger Norris]

I have no problem getting perfect (what looks like perfect) arrow flight off of the shelf.

My release is certainly not perfect, no one's is. As I go to lighter bows I am focusing more on release....heavy bows absolutely can mask a bad release.

Are you shooting a glove or a tab?

[Kirkll]

Changing the recommended brace height to get a better hole through paper isn't the way to go. By raising the brace height that much you are killing your performance.

 Actually paper tuning using trad gear with fingers isn't going to be very consistent anyway. That method is primarily used for rest adjustment using a center shot rest and a release aid. You get more movement using a tab or fingers, and depending on how far past center your rest is cut, those arrows need to flex more than a center shot set up.

First thing to do is get your bow back down to 7.25" brace, and get rid of the paper tuning set up for now.  Start with basics and let us know what draw weight, draw length, length of arrows, and what spine arrows you are using. That will get you better advice on arrow selection. .02 cents worth

[Mike Bolin]

Yep! Share your bow and arrow specs. A pic or video of you shooting would help too. It has been my experience that some shooters (including myself), over estimate their draw length. In our group of shooters we took pics of each other on the range. All but 2 (out of 10) were not drawing as far as they thought they were. That can make a difference in arrow spine, length, point weight. Rest/shelf material. I use soft sided Velcro and many custom bowyers do as well. You have folks here that will help you out!

[Stringwacker]

Off the shelf works just fine with tuning once you get the ups and downs and rights and lefts adjusted out.

One of the things I have never understood is why does raising the brace height make a bow shoot better with a stiffer arrow? I have heard this before; though I have never tried this myself.

In my way of thinking, the longer an arrow accelerates on the string... the arrow should become 'weaker' acting due the longer powerstroke and changes in the dynamic spine.

Regardless, I know that you want to get all that worked out before the big hunt!

[buckeyebowhunter]

I'd say you're beating yourself up a little more than necessary. I'd be willing to bet that about every person on this site has a release that could use some improvement including myself. Having consistent form is very helpful but certainly not vital to getting arrow flight that is acceptable.

After following you other thread pretty closely I agree that it sounds like your arrows were not spined correctly for the bow you're using although I don't believe you ever mentioned what spine or bow weight you're working with.

I agree with Kirk. Forget about the paper tuning and just get yourself some arrows spined in the ballpark and see what's going on. When I first started doing this nearly 20 years ago I never even thought about tuning and I could usually get broadhead tipped arrows flying decent.

A lot of times I think poor arrow flight can be from deflection off the shelf or sight window far more than from a bad release. Sometimes it's a simple as rotating the arrow to get the feathers to clear without deflection.

[Kirkll]

Off the shelf works just fine with tuning once you get the ups and downs and rights and lefts adjusted out.

One of the things I have never understood is why does raising the brace height make a bow shoot better with a stiffer arrow? I have heard this before; though I have never tried this myself.

In my way of thinking, the longer an arrow accelerates on the string... the arrow should become 'weaker' acting due the longer powerstroke and changes in the dynamic spine.

Regardless, I know that you want to get all that worked out before the big hunt!

Here is something to chew on. When raising a brace height above the bowyers recommendation, what it does is it actually lowers the preload tension on the limbs. I'm talking actual string tension at brace. This definitely affects the performance rate. Not only do you have a shorter power stroke, but there is less tension on the string to stop the forward motion of the limbs and less energy gets transferred to the shaft.

The amount past center the shelf is cut out can make a huge difference. The only thing that I could think of having a high brace helping with a stiffer shaft is that the arrow is coming off the string sooner and doesn't make contact with the strike plate as hard. But it's no way to tune arrows... listen to the bowyer and use the recommended brace height for best performance. Then tun your arrows accordingly.

[Hud]

If you would like some enjoyable reading on shooting, Search online for: two books by Fred Asbell "Instinctive Shooting", and "Instinctive Shooting II", and if you like those then find "Advanced Instinctive Shooting". There are a number of booksellers that will include his books to sell. The first two are available at Thrifty Books.

[Dave Bulla]

Quote from Stringwhacker... "One of the things I have never understood is why does raising the brace height make a bow shoot better with a stiffer arrow? I have heard this before; though I have never tried this myself."

Gonna go out on a limb here... In my experience, the reason a higher brace height helps stiff arrows shoot better has to do with the bow not being center shot which creates an angle between the arrow and the actual centerline. If say you have a bow that with its strike plate puts you about 1/8" left of center.  When you are at full draw, the angle between the arrow shaft and the center of the bow is minimal but if you let down to brace height and look from behind the bow, you will see that the point of the arrow is now VERY noticeably left of center.  (Right handed shooter) That's where proper spine comes into play and the arrow bends juuuust enough to flow around the riser.  If an arrow is too stiff,  the point will be forced left while the nock is still on the string.  The closer the string gets to the riser the greater angle becomes and the more the arrow has to bend.  If an arrow is too stiff, it simply deflects left.  If you raise the brace height, you are slightly decreasing the angle and as long as the arrow isn't WAY overspined, you can improve it's flight.   There are at least 3 better options though.   First of course is a lower spined arrow. Second is to leave your arrow longer but if they are already cut you are screwed on that option. Last is to increase point weight to make the arrow work harder in effect weakening the spine.

Hope that makes sense.

[Stringwacker]

I guess why I brought this up (as it relates to Iowabowhunter) is in another post he said he was getting a right paper tear and he moved his brace height WAY up and it helped. If he was a right handed shooter (a big assumption) his arrow was too stiff... and decreasing the power stroke by raising the brace height seemed counterproductive in my way of thinking. He was also trying to move the shelf further out at the same time.

With this post, I think he is making the right moves with the changes he has in mind.

Sooo...after reading all of this past and present....I see that Three Rivers's Stu Miller online calculator has the following footnote... once all your calculations are entered and the results are shown.


Fine tuning can then be done by adjusting the bow's brace height.

If the arrow is slightly weak (lower dynamic spine) for what the bow needs, then lower the brace height.
If the arrow is slightly stiff (higher dynamic spine) for what the bow needs, then raise the brace height.
"


Maybe the previous poster has it nailed exactly; but it still seems to me backwards from the way I always thought.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

I think you are way over complicating it. Get an arrow that shoots good (enough) with feathers and go shoot your bow a couple thousand times before May. You are going to be shooting a bear at 8 yards. You are not competing in the Olympics.  Killing that bear isn't about perfect bare shaft flight, it's about not $hitting the bed when he's standing there 8 yards away and blowing the shot.

Traditional equipment isn't a compound that you "tune" then only need to shoot 6 arrows out of a week before season. You won't have "perfect form" after buying a class and shooting a couple weeks.

Go shoot that bow a bunch with decent flying arrows and kill a bear.

Folks been doing it for a really really long time without all the drama!

 

R

[KAZ]

I think you are way over complicating it. Get an arrow that shoots good (enough) with feathers and go shoot your bow a couple thousand times before May. You are going to be shooting a bear at 8 yards. You are not competing in the Olympics.  Killing that bear isn't about perfect bare shaft flight, it's about not $hitting the bed when he's standing there 8 yards away and blowing the shot.

Traditional equipment isn't a compound that you "tune" then only need to shoot 6 arrows out of a week before season. You won't have "perfect form" after buying a class and shooting a couple weeks.

Go shoot that bow a bunch with decent flying arrows and kill a bear.

Folks been doing it for a really really long time without all the drama!

 

R

Very well stated... Don't know the specifics about all the bow, draw length, arrows, etc., but basic calculators, advice from similar knowledgeable folks, will get you to the target, as you progress, you can polish the stone, diamond etc...

[MnFn]

I hesitate to saying anything about this as you have gotten a lot of suggestions already.
But here goes. Before my first trip to Stickflingers, I found I wasn't shooting very consistent. I tried about everything.

And now I have come to the notion that I agree with whoever said tuning the shooter is more important than a perfect tune on the bow.

I like a balanced arrow. Spine for me shoots best when it is 5-10 pounds over the ACTUAL bow weight.

I thought I was drawing about 28". Then I marked an arrow at 1/2 inch increments above and below 28".  I had my wife stand to my side and watch me shoot. I tried to just shoot a normal draw length. When I was relaxed and not trying to reach maximum draw, at the point of the arrow being released, I was repeatedly at about 26.5"! So I weighed my bow and when drawing 26.5" I was actually shooting a 45# bow. For me, 50-55# spine shoots the best with a 27" arrow. Broadhead weight - nothing crazy heavy. 130-150 or so.

I talked with and read Sunset Hill Longbow and Leathers blogs. And just like Ryan Rothhaar's suggestion, Nate recommends just shooting hundreds of times. Get used to the bow. And smile when you are shooting-relax. It's supposed to be fun.

I also am a proponent of shooting up close to the target (blank bale shooting). Now is the time to pay attention to your draw, release etc. not trying to hit a specific dot.

Then just go out and shoot with judo points at dandelions, leaves, stumps  whatever. Forget about the technical stuff -just shoot and have fun.

[LookMomNoSights]

I think you are way over complicating it. Get an arrow that shoots good (enough) with feathers and go shoot your bow a couple thousand times before May. You are going to be shooting a bear at 8 yards. You are not competing in the Olympics.  Killing that bear isn't about perfect bare shaft flight, it's about not $hitting the bed when he's standing there 8 yards away and blowing the shot.

Traditional equipment isn't a compound that you "tune" then only need to shoot 6 arrows out of a week before season. You won't have "perfect form" after buying a class and shooting a couple weeks.

Go shoot that bow a bunch with decent flying arrows and kill a bear.


Folks been doing it for a really really long time without all the drama!

 

R

Ryan just punched this thing in the face for you and set it straight ..... bottom line.  You can still strive for more,  but I'd say do that later.   Start with Ryan's approach.  When someone with little or no experience asks me about shooting my stick bow and "how do you aim it and hit what you want?" is something I've always gotten ..... and it is ALWAYS coming from compound shooters .... I tell them that it is something like developing a good golf swing in the way,  in the fact that "form" and consistency and lots of good practice and maintaining those conditions,  get you to where you are proficient.  Some folks have to pay large sums of coin to a professional golf pro to make any substantial progress with their swing,  some it comes more easily for.  Maybe,  it could be the same for the stick bow shooter,  in the way that some just get it faster and have good resources/friends to help them out,  and some seek professional guidance either because they are struggling or because they want to take it to another level, they want more ..... and IT'S ALL GOOD,  but what I'm getting at it what was touched on above .... it requires more get-after than the compound game for certain.  I have buddies that shoot 6 arrows 2 days before season with their wheel bows and that satisfies them.  I shoot my longbows all year long,  even in crap weather (shoot in the barn).    Shoot and shoot and shoot and then shoot some more.  You will eliminate variables as you go,  I'm quite sure of it. You will even shoot arrows that group ok,  and think you are making good progress ....  and you would be correct, but then you make even more progress with form and consistency and now those arrows that grouped ok are not good enough because your shooting form got better and you can now make use of a different length arrow, point weight or even spine.   
A simple stick and string ..... Oh it so simple isn't it.    Not necessarily as simple as it looks, but very satisfying and the only way to go is how I feel about.
And take what Kurt said about brace seriously.

[JamesD]