Trad al finish defect

[Tradhunter207]

Hello all. I have an opportunity to purchase a very nice trad al reflex longbow from a friend. The bow is 62” 48# at 28 and I draw 29”. I shot it recently and it fit me very well. My concern is the fiberglass resin has 3 spots that look almost like small air pockets on the limbs. There does not seem to be any bulging. The one selling it did not notice it get any worse while he has owned it. To me it seems like a visual defect more than anything but curious if someone more knowledgeable than myself can take a look. I get pictures only do so much, but if it looks like it’s a major problem it would be nice to know. Thanks everyone.

[Camp Creek]

The two in the top pick look to be in an area experiencing the highest bending moment, so those would concern me most.  But, if they haven't gotten worse or been a problem, they're probably ok.  If you can watch them under bending and see if there's any movement or other indication of weakness, that'd probably be the easiest and cheapest way to check.  I'd use a good video camera up close as you draw it or a pair of really good bifocal safety glasses.  I'd advise the camera because if it goes, it'll be pretty dramatic!

[Orion]

Difficult to say for sure, but it looks to me like some foreign material got into the glue up between the glass and top lamination.  If it were glue starvation, you would see the underlying lamination, though perhaps a bit discolored in that space.  Same if it were a scratch on top of the glass.  The underlaying color would show through. I dunno.  Maybe that is the underlay color showing through. Still appears like some foreign material may have gotten in there.  Kind of weird that it seems to follow the grain, though that would happen if that grain just soaked up more glue than normal. 

Is the finish in tact on the side/corner of the limb where the spots run off? If so, whatever it is is probably sufficiently enclosed.  And, the fact that the areas haven't expanded would support that assessment.  Too, if they did start to open, it would be possible to repair the areas by dripping in some thin loctite.   

[Dave Bulla]

So, I personally used to own a bow that had similarly figured zebrawood lams but mine had even more figure and grain runout.  It started developing the same type of bubbles and I contacted the maker. His very first comment was "I've been wondering how that bow would hold up."  Turned out it was the only one he ever built using wood with that much figure and grain runout.  If you looked at the laminations from the edge, in my case, the grain orientation from that angle entered on one side and ran out the other in about 2 inches.  It had spectacular figure but I think it was just structurally a poor choice.  The bowyer made another bow for me with different wood (curly myrtle) that is pretty but I kinda regret getting rid of the zebra wood one because it was without a doubt the best looking bow I've ever seen.  I have an awfully long draw though at about 30" and I was concerned the bow might fail on me.  If your draw is more moderate like 27-28 inches and you really like the bow, it may be fine.  I'd definitely keep an eye on it and try to get it for a price you can afford to lose it at.

[Kirkll]

I've experienced this happening in the past with not only zebra wood, but other wood veneers. In my experience it only happens in the process of laying up the limbs when air pressure is lost or let off for adjustment, then reinflated. The loss of air pressure sucks air back under the glass.

Notice that these spots are toward the edges of the limb. I believe this may be the case here. Typically these will not increase in size, nor effect the strength of the limbs, and are basically cosmetic. Some times these can air pockets can be filled with a water thin super glue if great care is taken sanding the edges of the limbs finish and carefully applying the glue to the edge. It's a tricky procedure and has mixed results. Sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes not. It also typically requires refinishing the bow.  That water thin super glue can really make a mess even taking great precautions. But its an incredible product....    .02 cents worth from a bowyer...  Kirk

[Kirkll]

There is another option for giving the illusion of conformity, or making these spots seem to disappear completely by using an artist brush and a very carefully color matched use of acrylic translucent paint. this is done by creating continuous grain lines through the cloudy spots that draw the eye... No they do not completely disappear, but often times you will be the only one that knows its ever been touched up.

A true craftsman / artisan  is only as good as his ability to give the illusion of perfection, and make the overall finished product pleasing to the eye.... For there are flaws in all of them...    Kirk

[Tradhunter207]

Thanks everyone. Some things to consider

[Steelhead]

I have had bows similar to yours.Never became an issue for me personally as far as laminations separating,delaminating etc.

[Birdbow76]

Happened to me twice and both times were when using figured zebrawood on recurves. I made new bows for both customers.

[kennym]

Had that once with jatoba and once with Purple Heart

Both followed the grain like yours .

The jatoba had it on both limbs in exact same grain spot

[Tradhunter207]

What was the outcome with yours? Did they hold up ok?

Had that once with jatoba and once with Purple Heart

Both followed the grain like yours .

The jatoba had it on both limbs in exact same grain spot

[Tradhunter207]

My primary concern is that I have a 29” draw. I do like the bow, and it fits comfortably. And the price is pretty good too. However I’m concerned of the bow blowing up while I draw. I have experience with fiberglass but not in making a bow, to me it seems like a cosmetic thing that would probably be fine but obviously there’s now true way of knowing. And I completely understand any bow can break at any time. I’d also be shooting 600 plus grain arrows so hopefully that would help.

I've experienced this happening in the past with not only zebra wood, but other wood veneers. In my experience it only happens in the process of laying up the limbs when air pressure is lost or let off for adjustment, then reinflated. The loss of air pressure sucks air back under the glass.

Notice that these spots are toward the edges of the limb. I believe this may be the case here. Typically these will not increase in size, nor effect the strength of the limbs, and are basically cosmetic. Some times these can air pockets can be filled with a water thin super glue if great care is taken sanding the edges of the limbs finish and carefully applying the glue to the edge. It's a tricky procedure and has mixed results. Sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes not. It also typically requires refinishing the bow.  That water thin super glue can really make a mess even taking great precautions. But its an incredible product....    .02 cents worth from a bowyer...  Kirk

[kennym]

What was the outcome with yours? Did they hold up ok?

Had that once with jatoba and once with Purple Heart

Both followed the grain like yours .

The jatoba had it on both limbs in exact same grain spot


They were given to friends long ago with the condition that they watch it and if it grows to cease use.

I had a red elm bow that had a dime size spot just past the fades. I shot it off and on for a few years, then noticed it was a nickel sized spot, then it blew up spectacularly on the back deck. So if I were you, I'd watch it carefully.

[kennym]

They were given to friends long ago with the condition that they watch it and if it grows to cease use.

I had a red elm bow that had a dime size spot just past the fades. I shot it off and on for a few years, then noticed it was a nickel sized spot, then it blew up spectacularly on the back deck. So if I were you, I'd watch it carefully.

[Walt Francis]

They were given to friends long ago with the condition that they watch it and if it grows to cease use.

I had a red elm bow that had a dime size spot just past the fades. I shot it off and on for a few years, then noticed it was a nickel sized spot, then it blew up spectacularly on the back deck. So if I were you, I'd watch it carefully.

Be careful.  My experience is it isn’t worth the risk.
A longbow made by a friend with red elm veneers developed a Nickel sized cloud near the fade on the upper limb after several years.  Stayed the same size for another 3-4 years.  Strung it up in the house before an evening late season elk hunt, drew the bow back several times then the belly glass delaminated.  Belly glass entered my hand at the web between the thumb and pointer finger, the end was pushing the skin on the other side of the hand below the little finger, out half an inch, but did not break through the skin.  The last 6-8 inches of glass was still adhered to the tip of the upper limb, had rip the remaining glass off to get in the car and drive to the ER.  Luckily, it didn’t severe any of the tendons to my fingers, the glass went between the tendons and the bones.

[Kirkll]

My primary concern is that I have a 29” draw. I do like the bow, and it fits comfortably. And the price is pretty good too. However I’m concerned of the bow blowing up while I draw. I have experience with fiberglass but not in making a bow, to me it seems like a cosmetic thing that would probably be fine but obviously there’s now true way of knowing. And I completely understand any bow can break at any time. I’d also be shooting 600 plus grain arrows so hopefully that would help.

I seriously doubt that bow is going to blow up on you…. The size and shape of those cloudy spots , as well as the location on the limb does not look like anything is coming apart to me.

Now if something like this “Developes” after use in the fade area, or in the working portion of the limb, and increases in size with use. That’s a whole different story.

I think I’d continue to shoot it and just keep an eye on those spots. I’d bet it’s just cosmetic….  Kirk