Crossguns in PA

[Ron Vought]

My response to Crossgun use in PA on another forum. The crossgun crowd was using their typical response to bashing them and that we are all hunters. Maybe harsh to some but to the point and needed to be said. Below is my response....

No its not an embarrassment to bash each other especially when a weapon like the crossgun and technology advancements can have a negative impact on our archery season. See the problem here is that everyone wants their cake and eat it too. Problem is you can't manage a herd and have advancements in technology driving the harvest allocations over their capacity. At some point something has to give. We live in a society where some want instantaneous success. I call them opportunists. I just question why people shoot a crossgun. Nine times out of ten it is because they want instantaneous success without putting any time into practice or learning woodsman skills. When your equipment could have a negative impact on our seasons we are not "ALL HUNTERS". We have to draw the line somewhere and I feel its through equipment restrictions and the removal of the crossgun during archery season. Probably too late because most bow hunters wanted their cake and it too. The thirst for instantaneous success and technology enhancements overshadowed the inclusion of the crossgun.

I really enjoy watching these posts and see the sugar coating that is going on with the use of the crossgun. Folks its shoulder held, locked, cocked and scoped. Very effective weapon!! No one that shoots a crossgun is talking about its advanced capability and negative impact it can have on our bow season here in PA....because most are opportunists.

It's funny because many years ago when talking about equipment restrictions we saw this coming. I am glad that the mods here left this thread stay because most other forums are removing these posts because they are licking the boots of the manufactures (i.e crossguns)

Ron

[Cyclic-Rivers]

I feel as you do Ron.  If they include crossbows, They should just do away with all special seasons and just have "hunting season".

Not that I advocate that, but its the same darn thing.

Every cross bow owner I know, which is only 8, have not filled a bow tag in at least a year. ALL killed deer this year with their cross bows. coincidence??? probably not.

[Ron Vought]

Charlie - I can honestly say that after some back and forth on another forum with guys that shoot crossguns I now understand them better. First of all they strive for instantaneous success. They always try to place their weapon in the same category as the compound bow in regards to proficiency and effectiveness. They actually convince themselves that there is some kind of challenge to using a crossgun. Normally looking for the longer shot with the aid of a scoped, locked, cocked and shoulder held weapon. The other one is that the weapon is legal so basically shut up and deal with it. They also throw out the bashing flag when I pinned them into a debate...of course we are all hunters and should except the crossgun with open arms. The big one that leaves me scratching my head is that they don't see the negative impact that their choice of weapon could have on the archery season. It's definitely a new breed of hunter that just doesn't care about how anyone feels or the negative impact they will have on our archery seasons. The sum it up they are opportunists looking for a short cut and disguise to gain entry into the archery season. I was also told that I show no respect for them because I call their weapon a CROSSGUN. I did agree in partial with with them that I have no respect for the CROSSGUN    

The use of the crossgun in archery season I can guarantee will be no good for bow hunters.

Ron

[JMG]

I'm with you Ron. Crossbows are for people who want "instant gratification" and do not want to put forth the effort and time. It burns me when I come across crossbowers and they consider what they are doing is bowhunting. "NOT" even close. I remember my father running my oldest brother out the house when he brought a crossbow over to his house. He said get that contraption off his property!! Since legalizing crossbows in Delaware, we have found several bolts on my family's property that was obviously shot from the roadway. And last year my one brother shot a gimpy doe that had a bolt buried in her hip. I have no use for them or want them in the woods. But if one should have a legit medical issue, then by all means, use one. These crossbows will have a long range negative effect on our deer herds as well as our bowhunting season in the years to come. That's my 2 cents

[Cyclic-Rivers]

I agree with you Ron 100%

They cannot see the negative impacts of Crossbow use because they are so focused on Wanting to use One, they are not thinking about negatives, merely building a wall when they hear opposition.

That's quite normal in today's selfish instant gratification society.

I met a guy at a DNR check station last fall who came in bragging he shot the biggest deer anyone has ever seen in the county. The lasy said he was lying because he was only in her shop an hour before buying his license and bragging he bought the best cross bow on the market.  

Bought crossgun at 3 pm
bought license at 3:45 pm
Shot deer at 4:20 pm.

Then the kind of guy he was showed through when he was bashing the deer. (mix in all sorts of cuss words) he didn't care about the meat, the coyotes can have it and he was going back for the antlers in the morning.

[Hatrick]

I wish you guys would stop talking negative about crossbows. They bring more people into "archery" as you can see from this photo. This young man is being instructed on how to properly hold the "bow" and direct the projectile to the target. I'm not sure if he's using the gap method or just instinctive. I see he's using a release aid so obviously a more modern style of shooting. It doesn't look like a thumb ring will work here. I'm not sure which bowyer made it nor am I familiar with the wood combination in that riser.

Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself. The da-- things are legal now for the whole archery season in Maryland, have been for a while. I get it,...that its a leathal and effective weapon, but I'll be dam--- if it's archery. My biggest fear with them is safety.

The picture is from the Maryland Crossbow Federation website where they state "We earned you the right to hunt with your crossbow the entire hunting season."  You can bet they will be working with other state federations to do the same in every state. In Maryland that means they can hunt with a crossbow from September 5 - January 31.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's more than enuf to have to talk about CROSSGUNS, but there will be NO images of such machines allowed @ Trad Gang

[Ron Vought]

Just because they are legal doesn't just make it archery or bowhunting. You need to look at the weapon and understand there could be a negative impact by adding them into the bow season. If the kill goes above and beyond the biologist forecast the season will never be extended or worst case shortened. I think most bowhunters just assume their season will stay intact. Here in PA the cross gun kills are under the microscope and closely being monitored. I have never heard or seen concern coming from PA in regards to bowhunters and their harvest percentage until the crossgun was implemented. The way I see it the crossgun should not be legal in bow season due to it capability and impact on the season.

Sorry but I don't feel they are some how part of archery or bowhunting. Where do we draw the line on the true identity of bowhunting and archery....when a crossgun fires a bolt at 1,000 FPS with a 209 primer?


Ron

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Hatrick:
I wish you guys would stop talking negative about crossbows. They bring more people into "archery" as you can see from this photo....

i could care a rat's pitoot less about the notion of crossguns "bringing more people into archery" because CROSSGUNS ARE NOT ARCHERY.

i have nothing against crossguns EXCEPT when the powers that be decide that these machines are the same as traditional archery bows, let alone wheel bows.  THAT is total NONSENSE.

CROSSGUNS have NOTHING whatsoever to do with ARCHERY!

one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to see that they are "GUNS", not "BOWS"!   WHY???  

• because they are preloaded and can be kept in that state for hours if not dayze
• because a hunting weight crossgun can be cocked with a tool that can operated by a child
• because a hunting weight crossgun can be "fired" by a child
• because they ARE "guns"

crossguns belong in the GUN hunting seasons, NOT the ARCHERY hunting seasons.

we need to have archers, particularly traditional bowhunters, stop promoting crossguns - those folks can do that themselves, and all we're doing is shooting ourselves in the head.

[Hatrick]

READ THE SARCASAM IN MY POST GUYS!!!

That's why I posted the picture (sorry about that Rob) of that stupid looking contraption thats been allowed in the archery season. I would be the last person in the State of Maryland to ever advocate for their inclusion in the "archery" season. They're like the plague moving from state to state.

[Ron Vought]

I'm convinced this is the only site left on the Internet where we can have a debate about the crossgun. All I can say is there must be a lot of 'licking the manufactures boots' going on within the hunting community. Really sad to see.

Ron

[Krex1010]

I agree with everyone that crossbows are not in the same category as compounds and I'll not even bring trad gear into this comparison. They are simply easier to be lethal with. That being said, and I said this in another thread, I've seen enough unprepared people taking their compounds out hunting and wounding several deer a season. These people had no business shooting at a deer with a bow. Sighting your bow in 2 days before the opener does not an archer make. I'd rather these people shoot crossbows and kill the first deer they shoot at rather then hear them talk about losing deer after deer.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Krex1010:
I agree with everyone that crossbows are not in the same category as compounds and I'll not even bring trad gear into this comparison. They are simply easier to be lethal with. That being said, and I said this in another thread, I've seen enough unprepared people taking their compounds out hunting and wounding several deer a season. These people had no business shooting at a deer with a bow. Sighting your bow in 2 days before the opener does not an archer make. I'd rather these people shoot crossbows and kill the first deer they shoot at rather then hear them talk about losing deer after deer.

i agree.  

however, not in archery season because crossguns have nothing whatsoever to do with archery, be it a trad bow or a cable bow.  '

that IS the problem - treating a crossgun as if it's archery.

[Krex1010]

Rob, I agree with you in the principle of your statement. Crossbows are not an archery weapon. But there is the way we want things and then there is the way things are. Unfortunately there is a segment of archery season hunters who are not going to practice and prepare for archery hunting. I've seen it, Wedenesday before a Saturday opener they start thinking about hunting, uncase their bow for the first time in months, take a few practice shots and go hunting. We can't force these guys to practice, and we can't prevent them from going hunting. I know crossbows aren't archery tools, but I'd rather these guys shoot crossbows and wound less deer than force them to use bows they have no business aiming at an animal because I want my archery season to fit my own definition of archery.

[ChuckC]

I am thinking that folks that are gonna not take it seriously, are gonna not take it seriously, period.  They want a certain thing and they want it now.  Put a crossgun in their hands and I will bet that they take shots they wouldn't have before.

And how tough is it to shoot 20 yards with a compound ?   Nope, they want (perceived) easier and they want to stretch their shot in case the "big one" walks thru the woodlot anywhere near to them (making it "their deer, right?).

Besides. . .  I really don't WANT more folks in the woods.  I believe that if we actually doubled the number of licensed hunters in our population, it wouldn't change anything in terms of voting or political clout.  Hell, nobody goes out of their way to be politically active as it is now.
ChuckC

[Rob DiStefano]

if you don't believe, as i do, that crossguns don't belong in the archery hunting season(s), then don't offer an alternative explanation that actually tells the powers that be it's ok to mix archery bows and crossguns.  

i could give a rat's pitoot for how easy it should/could be for someone to get afield and attempt to kill stuff - i sure as heck don't want those kinda "hunters" getting in my way.  

look at what happened to guru when some stupid kid decided he was a deer and shot him with a 30-30 slug.  could as easily have been the bolt from a x-gun.  

there is no reason for hunting to be "fast food easy".  in fact, it can never be, and to think otherwise is at least dangerous because hunting mixes lethal weapons and humans in the same venue as the game hunted.

[Ron Vought]

The majority of crossgun hunters that I talk too hunt with the crossgun because they have "limited time" and are too busy to practice with a hand drawn bow. Makes me laugh because the first thing that goes through my head is that they are just plain lazy. They basically admit the crossgun is a shortcut for them so I also label them 'opportunists'. I just scratch my head after talking to crossgun hunters and their mindset on archery. They are just looking for something easy that extends their hunting opportunity. Just a way different crowd of people we could probably do without in the woods.

Ron

[Krex1010]

I don't know about labeling them all lazy Ron, my cousin has 4 kids, works his behind off for about 60 hours a week, helps out in youth sports, always puts his family first.  He also cannot shoot a bow at his house so he has to come to my house or another place to shoot. He also loves to hunt, he may only have time to get out 4 or 5 days a year. Should he have to wait to hunt until his kids are older and he has more time to devote to archery? I mean who am I to tell him he's wrong? I never consider myself a more noble hunter because I'm choosing to go the trad route. Take a broader view, I'm sure we all do things in life that someone could point at and say "that's the easy way."   I don't know, maybe I'm off base, it wouldn't be the first time, and please understand I'm not judging anyone for their feelings, this is just debate which I think is healthy.

[Rob DiStefano]

i hear ya, keith, and there's valid merit to what you say.  hopefully yer cousin knows his limits and can make a reasonably good call when to drop the string, be it trad bow or wheel bow or crossgun.

but that is not the real issue at hand.  

it's about the difference between a hand drawn bow and a latched and locked ready-to-fire finger-on-the-trigger crossgun.

it's about the politico's decision that crossguns are archery, when clearly they are not.  

i don't want gun hunters sharing the same hunting time slot and venue as a bowhunter, no matter what style of hand drawn bow is used.

[Ron Vought]

Keith most of the people who I know and talk to about a crossgun want instantaneous success and opportunity...period. They don't want to put anytime into practicing with a hand drawn bow. Too me its just lazy but maybe I see things differently. Your right not all are lazy but I have to ask why one would want to use a crossgun to begin with. I went out with my dad at 12 years old with a Bear recurve and couldn't wait to get back into the woods once we left for the day of ground hunting and stalking. It wasn't about insteaneous success and opportunity. Maybe a earlier generation mindset but we were taught woodsman skills and when you did get a deer you felt like it was earned.

Ron

[Krex1010]

Ron, I don't know about you, but I don't expect everyone else to want to do things the same way as me. Most of the guys I know who use crossbows are passionate hunters, they scout, they improve habitat, most have diverse hunting interests. I mean I would feel like a snob to say that the way I choose to do something is the only honorable and proper way to do something. I hear plenty of people who question why I would want to use a traditional bow, some people feel we owe it to the animal we hunt to be the most accurate, humane killer we can be, and let's be honest, there are only so many Howard Hills, the vast majority of us will never shoot our trad bows as well as a compound or crossbow, but we make our own choice. I personally will never hunt an animal I don't enjoy eating (wolf, coyote, bear) and I will never go on a guided hunt, because I want to be responsible for finding my own animal in my home woods, but i would never judge another hunter who chooses to hunt wolves or go on a guided elk hunt. Hunt and let hunt my friend, we only live once seize your own day and let others do the same.