HH bug got me ... Part One!

[mikebiz]

I hear you Overspined.  I have some serious damage in my shoulder that I haven't had diagnosed and it limits me to 55# and under.  I would love to shoot a 75-80 pounder just to see what it's like.  But it will never happen.  I guess we're both lucky that we have the strength left to shoot Hill bows at all.

[Ground Hunter]

The heavier bows do have some advantages.  But, for me it means shooting one every day.  If you let off for a while, you will have to work back up.  I use it as part of an overall exercise program.  The better shape you are in overall, the less likely you will be injured doing other things.  I try to set a goal.  Right now a 70# bow is comfortable for me to shoot for quite a while.  By the end of the summer I hope to be at 75 or 80 lbs.  I received a new Wesley from HHA yesterday, its 65#s seems like a toy.            

[Rik]

If drawing your bowstring is the hardest thing your shoulder muscles ever do, you are not treating your body well.

Work your muscles in other ways, ways that are much more strenuous than simply drawing your bow, and you just might gain some bow strength.

That's the way we're designed. The harder we work, the stronger we get. No way around it. We are well designed.

Being way stronger than your bow is kinda like being way smarter than your wife. You should never admit it out loud, but MAN is it a whole lot better than the other way around.

Uh. . . what's that dear? Yes dear, I have already finished drying the dishes and the laundry is almost done. . .

(darned taskmasters anyway!)

[Ground Hunter]

Rik

I use one of the TRX trainers.  That thing will burn you up.  Best thing I've found for overall training and hitting those bow muscles.

[tradlongbow]

I find the best exercise is shooting the bow several hundred shots a day and as often as possible. You need to keep it sports related, that's why I believe in shooting as often as you can. I handed my bow's of 50-60 lbs to guys that workout at the gym regularly and they never had the back muscles to pull the bow. Last year, I was in the gym with a bunch of guys half my age, they were in their 20's. They brought out this device that you squeeze and measures your strength. I almost doubled what these other guys were pulling when I squeezed that machine. I was able to do it because of the bow string that I pull all the time. I' ve been shooting 50#s for a couple years; and have been very pleased with my performance and the bows out put. I don't see myself increasing the weight.       Darren

[tg2nd]

Originally posted by Rik:
If drawing your bowstring is the hardest thing your shoulder muscles ever do, you are not treating your body well.

Work your muscles in other ways, ways that are much more strenuous than simply drawing your bow, and you just might gain some bow strength.

That's the way we're designed. The harder we work, the stronger we get. No way around it. We are well designed.

Being way stronger than your bow is kinda like being way smarter than your wife. You should never admit it out loud, but MAN is it a whole lot better than the other way around.

Uh. . . what's that dear? Yes dear, I have already finished drying the dishes and the laundry is almost done. . .

(darned taskmasters anyway!)

Good one, Rik.

[Nate Steen .]

I love to shoot heavy.  For years I shot eighty pounds and up and could draw 140#....but now I don't have the time for those weights and shoot around 64 or 65#....but I can shoot that weight upside down and longbow accuracy is about control....  

[Ari]

Nate, without pictures your fancy upside down stunts mean nothing.  

[john gilbert]

One thing I have noticed, a light bow, like stepping down from 70 58 for hunting, will show your errors. A heavy bow does clean up some flaws for alot of people, myself included.

[Rik]

Phew, that was really close guys. . . she almost saw what I was typing!

[Overspined]

Nice Rik!! Close the laptop!  

The tough thing about injuries is that you sometimes can't work around the problem.  I can build strength all I want and it doesn't fix the feeling in the shoulder with proper form.  Like you said mikebiz, I am fortunate to be shooting anything and will enjoy it!!

Another thing I have seen is some folks end up wrecking their bodies shooting too much weight, training appropriately makes sense!    I laugh about when Ron LaClair told me he used to shoot really heavy bows, and as he gets older he drops about a pound per yr.  Last time I spoke with him he was at 50 or 51#!   He has a good sense of humor and shoots quite well at the mid weight range.

[Rik]

Yup, it doesn't matter what weight bow you shoot. If it's a 30-pound bow or a 40-pound bow, you will shoot it better if you are just a little stronger than the bow.

It's not just the drawing arm and back muscles----a huge part of accuracy is in the bow arm itself. When I shoot, that part feels like mostly triceps doing the work.

I may draw my bow kind of weird though, and maybe that's why I don't feel any strain in my shoulder joints. I draw my bow with the two muscles between my shoulder blades. It feels like they do almost all the work.

When I short draw, as in when I draw a kids bow with a short kids arrow, I draw mostly with my shoulder, but when I draw a full-length arrow, it's the back muscles doing the work, not the drawing arm or shoulder.

That's what gives me a really good push/pull feeling. Pulling my bow with just my right shoulder would not create the balancing push with the bow arm. By using my back, it draws the right shoulder back while pushing the left shoulder forward in unison.

I think the British archers call it "being IN the bow."

[Ground Hunter]

Closing up your stance will help getting the back into the game.  However, you can't just grab a heavy bow without learning how to draw it and not hurting yourself.  It's not just muscles its also skeletal orientation.  You have to build a foundation.

[30coupe]

Originally posted by Rik:


When I short draw, as in when I draw a kids bow with a short kids arrow, I draw mostly with my shoulder, but when I draw a full-length arrow, it's the back muscles doing the work, not the drawing arm or shoulder.  

When you short draw, you are feeling the muscles work that you use on EVERY draw. The back muscles have very limited range of motion. It is just that last few inches of the draw that really involves the back muscles. Up to that point, your deltoid (shoulder) muscles are doing most of the work. The reason it feels like you are only using your back muscles is because a traditional bow builds weight (2-3 pounds per inch) as you draw, so the heaviest part of the draw IS done with the back muscles.

If you want to test this, just draw a heavy compound bow a few times. The spot where you hit "let-off" on a compound is about where your back muscles are taking over with a traditional bow, so  that is where you hit the heaviest draw with a wheel bow. I found this out when my youngest son wanted me to try out is new compound. I think is is set for 65# or so. Being a traditional shooter, I drew it just as I would have my longbow. I managed two shots with difficulty. On the third, my shoulder just collapsed before I hit the let-off point. Man, did that hurt!

I have plenty of strength to make the draw, but my old joints just aren't up to the task anymore. Ligaments, tendons and cartilage don't get stronger with heavy use. I read that Howard Hill had about the same problem later in life.

I hope that compound bow paragraph makes sense. Trust me, though, you are using your shoulder muscles any time you draw a bow. I was one of the weird ones who actually like Anatomy and Kinesiology class.     :rolleyes:

[Nate Steen .]

one trick i use for stable shooting that is different than conventional instinctive shooting instruction but is consistent with good form....

for an typical shooting stance shot,  I am turned more than 90* from the target by dropping my rear foot farther back and rotating my hips away from the target.  When I bring the bow on target, this rotates my body core, putting twist into the core muscles, which helps stabilize the body and makes is easier to pull heavier bows because of leverage, and my bow shoulder is in proper position.  The more you face the target, the harder it is to get the bow arm deltoid/shoulder muscle out where it needs to be for strength and stability, and that limits the amount of poundage you can shoot. The archers of old would face at right angles to the target to get their body into the shooting.  Watch a video of Simon Stanley shooting a 150# ELB and you get the idea.....

[Nate Steen .]

If you look at photos and clips of Hill, he rarely faced the target, preferring to stand at a 90* stance, yet with the bent arm and tilted head he kept the draw length short.  Also, with the bow arm in a position like he did, alot of bow weight is handled by the deltoid muscle, a very powerful muscle and less weight on the tricep.

[Rik]

I am curious, and would like to hear from a few of you with light bows and injured shoulders. Try what Nate describes above for a few days and let us know if this alleviates some of the stress on your shoulders. I have a feeling it might make it more comfortable for some of you to shoot.

Like he says, the more you face the target, the more you have to use your shoulder muscles (and sore joints) to draw.

Give it a try and let us know one way or the other. It's worth a try, and like my friend Jack Harrison says, it's just "more unnecessary fun!"

[toddster]

I worked up and shot 80# longbow for few years.  But after I ordered a bow and came in at 55 instead of 85, I shot it and found out that, my form and shooting was way better.  Also, I noticed that shoulder and back didn't ache (swing slege at work, thought that was culprit).  That season, I hunted with the bow and though was slower, I got more precise shots on squirrel and deer.  No need to limit ones hunting life to 10 or 20 years, when can do it lot longer.

[tradlongbow]

Have you ever handed your bow to someone that worksout with weights and is in good physical shape that couldn't pull back the bowstring?

I used to be surprised that someone could be so strong in the gym, but struggled to pull back a bow string. The best exercise for shooting the bow and holding your bow steady is shooting. Continual  repetitions of drawing, holding and shooting is the best exercise for archery.   I have two close friends of mine that are both 77 years old. One of them is about 5'5" 145 lbs. and shoots 50lbs several times a week. The other guy is about 5'10" 170lbs and shoots 45lbs. everyday and he is shooting field 99% of the time. He also is a NFAA and IFAA record holder. Last year, he was inducted into the Florida Archery Hall of Fame. Both guys shoot traditional bows. They say that Howard Hill would shoot several hundred arrows for practice even in his later years. Darren

[30coupe]

Originally posted by Rik:
I am curious, and would like to hear from a few of you with light bows and injured shoulders. Try what Nate describes above for a few days and let us know if this alleviates some of the stress on your shoulders. I have a feeling it might make it more comfortable for some of you to shoot.

Like he says, the more you face the target, the more you have to use your shoulder muscles (and sore joints) to draw.

Give it a try and let us know one way or the other. It's worth a try, and like my friend Jack Harrison says, it's just "more unnecessary fun!"

That is how I shoot too whenever possible. I do practice a few face-on shots because the deer could care less about my old, achy shoulder, but I limit those shots to a few each day. Most of my shooting is done almost exactly as Nate described.

Your body will eventually tell you what weight to use. Just ask Ron LeClair...or me. Give it a few years, Rik, and you won't have to ask anyone; you'll know. I vaguely recall being young once too.    

I'll do whatever it takes to keep shooting as long as I can. If it means my arrows take longer to get to my intended target, so be it. I'll adjust.