Getting back into it

[Camp Creek]

I finally got back into bow hunting this year after several years off and found this site searching for instructions on a European mount.  After a mostly successful shoulder surgery, I was able to work back up to shooting a longbow I had made back when there were two Germanies and people thought Milli Vanilli sang their own songs.
After blowing the dust off of a tackle box with a JoJan fletching jig and an assortment of points, nocks , glue, etc. I was good to go after a call or two to 3 Rivers for some shafts and fletching.  No deer with a bow this year, but I had forgotten how much fun it was to hunt with a bow.

In the off season, I want to really fine tune everything and would like some thoughts and expertise on my plan:
Just got a test pack of douglas fir shafts from Surewood and plan on paper tuning with those to determine best spine and length.  I want to shoot at least 160gr head, so I'm trying to hold that constant if possible. 
Is paper tuning the best way to go?  The cedar arrows I have now seem to leave a nice clean hole.
Any thoughts on fletching tape instead of glue?  I'd never seen that before.
Is there anything else new in the past 30+ years I should look into?
The whole traditional trend seems to be much more popular now!

Thanks

[Wudstix]

Start back simple and slow.
 

[Orion]

Welcome back. 

Fletching tape works about as well as glue. 

Big changes over the past 30 years are carbon arrow shafting and low stretch strings, and I suppose carbon limb laminations and super recurve designs as well as hybrid bows (generally shorter bows with recurve (pistol grip) handles and extreme deflex/reflex limbs).     

Paper tuning was primarily introduced and popularized by wheelie shooters after they switched to trad bows.  Probably some trad folks who looked at wheelie shooters and just thought it was a good idea as well.  Not everyone does it, and it usually doesn't work too good with wood shafts because unless you''re already close to the correct spine, the arrows can leave the bow at a substantial angle and break when they hit the back stop behind the paper.

Same problem with bare shaft tuning, which is very similar.  With bare shafting, the orientation and location of the bare shaft arrow on the target is used to assess spine match to the bow, and to adjust it if necessary by changing arrow length and or/point weight, brace height, nock point height, etc.  A good number of trad shooters use this method, particularly those shooting carbon arrows.  There are probably old threads on this site dealing with bare shaft tuning.  If not, the internet is full of them. 

Though a lot of folks do use these tuning methods.  There's also a lot of folks who don't. Many wood shooters get to the correct spine through trial and error shooting different spines such as you will be doing with your test kit. They just cut the shafts to the length they want, fletch them and see which shoot the best.  Not as precise, but good enough in most cases.

Have fun. 



 

[Camp Creek]

Thanks.

I figure I'll try the paper tuning and use a back stop that shouldn't cause an arrow to break, probably a couple of hay bales.  It should be a good opportunity to try some that are definitely over or under spined and see if they give the anticipated result for paper tuning.

[Roy from Pa]

Welcome to Tradgang. Enjoy the journey...

[LookMomNoSights]

I finally got back into bow hunting this year after several years off and found this site searching for instructions on a European mount.  After a mostly successful shoulder surgery, I was able to work back up to shooting a longbow I had made back when there were two Germanies and people thought Milli Vanilli sang their own songs.
After blowing the dust off of a tackle box with a JoJan fletching jig and an assortment of points, nocks , glue, etc. I was good to go after a call or two to 3 Rivers for some shafts and fletching.  No deer with a bow this year, but I had forgotten how much fun it was to hunt with a bow.

In the off season, I want to really fine tune everything and would like some thoughts and expertise on my plan:
Just got a test pack of douglas fir shafts from Surewood and plan on paper tuning with those to determine best spine and length.  I want to shoot at least 160gr head, so I'm trying to hold that constant if possible. 
Is paper tuning the best way to go?  The cedar arrows I have now seem to leave a nice clean hole.
Any thoughts on fletching tape instead of glue?  I'd never seen that before.
Is there anything else new in the past 30+ years I should look into?
The whole traditional trend seems to be much more popular now!

Thanks

Welcome back!  Glad to hear you overcame the hurdles and are on your way once again.   Never too late.
My 2 cents on some of the points you've mentioned:   Fletch tape,  hate it.  Won't ever go there again.   From my experiences,  nothing holds and LASTS like glue,  specifically for me,  Fletchtite Platinum.  Sometimes I transfer it into another bottle with the fine metal needle type tip.  With glue,  you can add a small extra bead to the front and rear of the fletch quill for extra strength.  Fletch tape failed on me with changing weather it seemed.   
Paper tuning:  Are you talking about with your field points or with broadheads?  I do not paper tune as I feel I do not need that version of confirmation ........  I do HEAVILY bare shaft tune when determining what shafts I will use/what spine fits the bill.  Because bare shafting is done with my field points, I will at least know shaft wise what I need or what works.  Once I am happy with bare shafting,  I will fletch.   I use (3) 5 inch shields and occasionally, same with parabolic.  I did use (4) 4's for several years.  And one day a light bulb went off for me,  and told me that my 4 4's were so much louder than 3 5's. I haven't looked back.
Once I have the correct arrow and then broadhead mounted,  I shoot ....... a lot!  Really great arrow flight has a way of jumping out at ya.  Once I see that with my broadheads,  over and over and over again,  I know that if shot them through paper,  I'd see just what I expected. So I don't bother.   Now here is a thing to ponder - Many are of the school that if you shoot a 160gr field point,  you will shoot a 160 gr broadhead.  And in some case this may be what works for you, but don't bet the farm on that!  I shoot a 200gr field point.   I shoot a 235 gr broadhead (head with brass insert) to get the same flight as the field point!  a 200 gr broadhead in the design I shoot,  does not fly good enough or like the 200 gr field point.  The 235 does!  This was all figured out by analyzing my arrow flight ad nauseam.   The broadhead is longer than the field point,  and has wings.  It changes the spine.   Just something to think about.  Good luck to ya and again, thanks for getting back at it 

[LookMomNoSights]

Reading through this whole thing again, I feel it necessary to add ......  some of my above post pertains to carbon shafting more so.  Though I do also shoot wood,  I'd say darn near 50/50 between the 2.   I have never tried fletch tape on wood.  It was bad enough on carbon,  so I just didn't go there with the woodies.   Regardless of shaft material,  I still don't paper tune.  Still DO bare shaft like crazy.  Carbon is way more likely to be sensitive to the difference I spoke of with field point weight vs broadhead weight.
If you do not already have this,  with your shaft test pack it's huge to also have an array of field point weights to test with.  I always like to go too far either way light and heavy,  with point weight to confirm what actually is the sweet spot for point weight.

[Arctic Hunter]

I don’t have much experience with wood. But I’m a fan of bare shafting other shafts to get immediate reliable results and feedback (as long as your release is good and you’re not way off in spine). Slow motion video with a cell phone is also pretty helpful.

I’ve used fletching tape. I’m not a fan. I will use it to test if the feather position on the shaft is where I want it to touch my face at full draw. Then pull the feather off and glue them on.

[durp]

Welcome back...what is your draw length and weight

[bow4it]

I too am transitioning back to traditional after 30 years with a compound.  My first step was to send an order to Wes Wallace for some lighter pound limbs for my Brackenbury Drifter.  He said he could make me a set.  Love that bow.

While I waiting on the limbs, I got an inexpensive ILF bow to get start getting back to shooting 50+ pounds.  Not sure I can handle the 60+ limbs I currently have.

Have to admit I have missed the simplicity of traditional & looking forward to doing it again.

[Camp Creek]

65lbs at 29"

All of my archery tools and supplies are up at our farm, so I was able to get a little testing in between turkey hunting and bushhogging for food plots this weekend.  Unfortunately the third bare shaft I shot hit the second one and managed to break both    I had a paper tuning frame I'd made, so I tried that and 60-65lb spine was too stiff, 55-60 about right, and 50-55 too weak; all for 32" shafts.  FL thunderstorms put an end to any further testing, but right now my guess is a 31" 50-55lb shaft is probably close to what I'll end up with after all is said and done.

Separate issue which I'll also put in a different thread:  My old Jojan fletching jig has a gap between the fletching clamp and the shaft in the middle of the clamp no matter what shifting or adjustments I try.  The shafts are 11/32" tapered to 5/16" at the nock, so if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

[Camp Creek]

I think the more I learn, the more behind I get at this point.
Having gotten back into this after shoulder surgery, I was using a more "open" stance.  After reading the thread on the Terry's Form Clock, I got a 30# Bearcat picked up at a garage sale or something and played around with proper form for a bit.  Doing everything "by the book" as best I could tell, I would need a 34" arrow to have the base of the point out past my first knuckle at full draw.  Going back to the bow I made, 65#@29", it seems a 32" shaft will work ok as the extra draw at the heavier weight was quite difficult and that position was just not conducive to looking through my glasses with my head angled that way.
I put O-rings on the shafts just behind the heads so I can feel them with my knuckle at full draw.  It's pretty disruptive to concentration though, so their utility will probably be limited to just as an aid to help get a good feel for what proper back tension, etc. feels like.  I am hoping to use a three blade broadhead this fall with one blade oriented straight down and use that touching my knuckle to confirm full draw in the field.
So first big question:  I'm doing this purely to get back into hunting.  Is this Form Clock method well suited for the variety of positions one would find oneself in for hunting situations?
Second big question:  Would this longer draw length be expected to stay the same with the new stance, or should I expect it to increase a bit as I get used to the new form?

Next, I ordered a heavier spined Test Pack from Surewood and will resume tuning with them once they arrive.  I keep reading that most say to tune the bare shaft to match the impacts of the fletched shafts, but at this point I don't have any fletched shafts I can really rely on.  My plan is try and find a bare shaft that isn't nock left, right, high, etc. at 10 yards and then use that as a starting point for fletched shafts and paper tuning.
Third big question:  Does this sound like a reasonable plan to get properly tuned arrows?

Thanks again for all of the tips and advice so far, I can't believe I've found such an incredible resource!

[Bowsey Wails]

Don't mean to sound obnoxious, but 65# after shoulder surgery?

[Terry Green]

Congratulations. I wish you the best.On continual healing. Proper alignment and the magic t prevents injury, as well as promotes extreme accuracy in shooting.

Please keep us posted on your progress.....

[Camp Creek]

Thanks.  Yeah, 65# was a bit much, but it was the bow I made and the one that I had, and the surgery was not nearly as bad as it could have been i.e., no rotator cuff injuries.  Plus it was the anterior delt on my drawing arm which helped some too.  We bought a farm four years ago, and I finally managed to get out in the woods with a bow instead of a rifle.  Man, I didn't realize how much I had missed that!

[Charlie Lamb]

What do you mean Milli Vanilli didn't do their own songs? 

[Terry Green]

Charlie the book is almost done....

Love brother....

[Camp Creek]

All of my 50-65lb Test Pack bare shafts were hitting nock left, even after shortening them and dropping to 125gr points, so I ordered another Test Pack from Surewood for 65-70lb up to 75-80lb spine.  I also measured actual draw weight and length and from 20" up to 30" was going up 3lbs per inch according to my spring scale except for 30" to 31" which topped out at 70lbs with a 4lbs increase for that last inch.  The resolution on that spring scale is not the greatest, but I am assuming that at 31" draw I'm starting to stack, and that's about what I'm drawing now after trying to correct my form from what it was earlier.

Anyway, at 10 yards every single bare shaft from the new Test Pack is hitting nock left, including an 80lb shaft cut to 31" with a 125 gr point.  Most shafts are nock left at up to 20°, and two of the 80lb shafts broke on impact.  I did try a 70lb shaft without a point at all just to see, and at least that shaft did hit extreme nock right.  I could also get some of the heavier shafts with points to hit straight on if I shot with a short draw of 27-28".

I know everyone says to shoot bare shafts and see where they hit compared to fletched shafts for tuning, but with essentially a new setup I don't have any good fletched shafts to compare to.  I'm wanting to shoot at least a 160gr broadhead and was hoping the bareshafts would at least get me into the ballpark as far as proper spine and I could then fletch some and start fine tuning the results from there, but so far I'm seeing no real improvement from 55lb all the way up to 80lb.

I am assuming at this point that, unless my form is so atrocious that I won't get good arrow flight regardless, I have the following options:
Go up even higher in spine even though I'm theoretically over spined on paper at least
Add some thickness to the plate to move it even further from center shot so the bow theoretically "likes" a weaker arrow
Lower my brace height, but I assumed this was more of a "fine tuning" method and not sufficient for how far off I am now
Take some width off of the limbs to drop the draw weight, obviously pretty low on the list of preferred options

I made this bow myself years ago, so if any bowyers can tell me if this is indicative of a defect in design or build, please let me know.


Thanks