My number one goal is perfect flight and some additional weight-10-12 gpp-gives you good penetration on tougher animals and a quiet bow. Shoot whatcha' want that gives you confidence and a dead animal; but tougher critters will respond better to a bit of extra weight.

QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
Anybody done that hand-launch test with a 600 gr arrow using a 125 gr head (i.e. wood) vs. a 600 grain arrow using a 175 gr head (i.e. carbon fiber)?  

And then repeat it holding only the nock when throwing it.        

To what end... testing the effect of FOC...

Holding by the nock and throwing... like an Atlatl or by whipping it...?

My bow I shoot if put into a kenetic energy equation put me around 37 ftp of energy. Not enough recomended kenetic energy as far as charts go for hunting big game. Thats with a 530 gr arrow around 175 fps out of a 62 pounds at my draw. The deer I shoot this year whirled on me,it had been shoot with #8 buckshoot in the rump a day or two before,making it jumpy and the shoot placement not ideal. The arrow intered almost strait on clipping through edge of the right shoulder blade then strait back and breaking the pelvis in two. This is with a big wide 3 blade head! So why did it work when the charts say it's not enough because of a sharp head,well tuned bow and enough mass to carry it through(hard to stop a train). Alot of people follow Dr.Asbey researh on arrow penetration and he puts 600 gr mark for breaking though bone. It's a good read in the archives section and it might help you understand why so many choose to follow his recomdations. I don't think 600 gr is absolutly needed for deer size game but one wrong hit may change one's opinion.

QuoteOriginally posted by Javi:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
Anybody done that hand-launch test with a 600 gr arrow using a 125 gr head (i.e. wood) vs. a 600 grain arrow using a 175 gr head (i.e. carbon fiber)?  

And then repeat it holding only the nock when throwing it.        

To what end... testing the effect of FOC... [/b]

Yep.  Some claim the heavier head gives better flight.  I'm wondering out of the gate if the heavier head doesn't set up a pendelum effect that extends the paradox further out than a light head - both of the same all-up arrow weight.  Arrows are pushed from the nock end; not thrown from the center of gravity or balance point.

I'm just curious of EFOC vs. normal FOC.

Hey stumpkiller you shouldn't tell people the trick to an arrow throwing contest! I will not be able to win them all anymore.

and when shooting a heavier head.......spine of the arrow needs to be adjusted.

Paradox of both are the same.....or they wouldnt fly correctly out of the bow.

Stumpkiller... just think of a dart, how would it fly if the FOC wasn't there...

The weight forward pulls the arrow to the target which is why the high FOC will penetrate better and the arrow is more forgiving.. an arrow with little to no FOC will float... That's why when shooting Flight games we use arrows with negative FOC... not very accurate but they fly a long ways..     :D

QuoteOriginally posted by hunt it:
So the moral of the story is: sell your trad bow and buy a dump truck???    :cool:  

As long as it's not a Volkswagen dump truck, or was once used to haul ping pong balls. Heck if I know for sure.
   

Any arrow with a metal point at one end and a plastic nock at the other has some FOC; fletching being the wild card.  I taper the last 12" of my shafts and that no doubt adds more - but that's not why I do it.

Darts, you say.  Horrible trajectory.  They shoot on an 8 foot range.  Look at the relative vane size of a dart.  We'd have 10"L x 7"H fletch if we followed their lead.  So, what's a dart: 6" long +/-?  8 ft vs. 6" is a ratio that would give us an arrow range of 37 ft (12 yards) with a 28" arrow.  I've said that for years when guys tell me: "my arrows fly like darts".  My response: "I'm sorry".

Slowboke - I think you nailed the relative weight shift answer - the spine would have to be correct for the shaft's reaction to head weight.


I'm not really as much of a crank as you likely read from my posts.  I just like a sincere discussion.    

QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
Any arrow with a metal point at one end and a plastic nock at the other has some FOC; fletching being the wild card.  I taper the last 12" of my shafts and that no doubt adds more - but that's not why I do it.

Darts, you say.  Horrible trajectory.  They shoot on an 8 foot range.  Look at the relative vane size of a dart.  We'd have 10"L x 7"H fletch if we followed their lead.  So, what's a dart: 6" long +/-?  8 ft vs. 6" is a ratio that would give us an arrow range of 37 ft (12 yards) with a 28" arrow.  I've said that for years when guys tell me: "my arrows fly like darts".  My response: "I'm sorry".

Slowboke - I think you nailed the relative weight shift answer - the spine would have to be correct for the shaft's reaction to head weight.


I'm not really as much of a crank as you likely read from my posts.  I just like a sincere discussion.            

I see you never shot any Flight, it used to be more popular.. I haven't in years but when I did we built arrows with negative FOC and they had plastic nocks and steel points.. we simply weighted the rear of the shaft..

Darts fly well when thrown because of the weight forward design.. and yes because of the drag provided by the vanes.. but you don't really have to size comparison them to an arrow to understand the principal.. Weight forward is going to be more stable in non-powered flight; that principal has been know for centuries.. just look at spears..  an arrow and a dart is nothing more than a spear the dart and the spear propelled by human hand and the arrow  by a string... The heavier the spear in relationship to diameter, the more weight forward the balance and the more drag on the rear (vanes or feathers); the more stable in flight it will be..  How far it will travel and the trajectory is determined by the amount of force with which it is launched, the drag, the weight in relationship to the launch force and the balance....

Your setup is more than adequate to kill a deer or anyhthing else. I would try a heavier arrow though justto see how much quieter it is going to make it.  You may elect to move up in weight or not after that.

Yup, have to agree with Jeffry and Robert on this one. Unless you are hunting hogs or moose you can shoot 7-8gpp and do well on most any species here in NA. I shoot anywhere from 7.5 to 9 gpp. and do well. Shoot what flies best for you with a razor sharp head and do not worry what everyone else shoots. Shawn

Quote... Unless you are hunting hogs or moose you can shoot 7-8gpp and do well on most any species here in NA....[/QB]

Don't leave out the larger bull elk Shawn ;0)

They are as tough as any moose out there from my experience.

I think common sense tells us that there is a balance in all this info thrown around. But one can still choose to live at either end of the spectrum. Just be willing to accept the limitations or the quirks, of either extreme.

Joshua

quote:
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... Unless you are hunting hogs or moose you can shoot 7-8gpp and do well on most any species here in NA....[/QB]

and equally as well with heavier ones.

Never been one to attempt to use "the minimum". If I must ere I'll choose to ere on the side of "more than I need". Cheap insurance.

If not......Id be hunting with a 35lb bow......minimum allowed here.

"nevermind"

they all work. sorry to intrude.

No, never flight.  Did shoot field out to 80 yards.  Used the same arrow & point weight as for hunting as I consider all target practice to be hunting practice.

Lets look at throwing spears (as opposed to pikes & lances).  The Roman Pilum had a long, narrow head and a heavy shaft.  Weight is close to the hand when throwing.  And no fletching for stabilization.  As is the case of a javelin.  A thrusting spear (like a boar spear) has the weight in the head and is not for throwing.

   

The Norse also made a distinction in spears.  The "flying head" was a small leaf blade on a hefty ash shaft.

From what I could find in a quick search the head weighed from 9 oz to one pound.  An 84" x 1-1/4" dia ash pole weighs 3.6 pounds  (58 oz).  So relating that to an arrow analogy and using the heavier spear head: a 440 grain shaft would take a 121 grain head.  Bingo.  I use 125 or 130 grains on just that weight of wood shaft to end up with a 625 to 630 grain arrow.

PS - I agree with jhg and SlowBowke: they all work and sharp and accurate trumps all else.

Each of us has to be confident in OUR equipment or we might as well stay home.  I am confident in mine and, as a traditionalist using what has been taught me, I ain't changing.  ;-)  I'm happy for you if you are confident in yours.

And the best news is that I find my broadheads for about $3 to $5 a piece.

QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
No, never flight.  Did shoot field out to 80 yards.  Used the same arrow & point weight as for hunting as I consider all target practice to be hunting practice.

Lets look at throwing spears (as opposed to pikes & lances).  The Roman Pilum had a long, narrow head and a heavy shaft.  Weight is close to the hand when throwing.  And no fletching for stabilization.  As is the case of a javelin.  A thrusting spear (like a boar spear) has the weight in the head and is not for throwing.

   

The Norse also made a distinction in spears.  The "flying head" was a small leaf blade on a hefty ash shaft.

From what I could find in a quick search the head weighed from 9 oz to one pound.  An 84" x 1-1/4" dia ash pole weighs 3.6 pounds  (58 oz).  So relating that to an arrow analogy and using the heavier spear head: a 440 grain shaft would take a 121 grain head.  Bingo.  I use 125 or 130 grains on just that weight of wood shaft to end up with a 625 to 630 grain arrow.

Started shooting Field in '59... still my favorite game.

Note to self: always tell Stumpkiller my arrows fly like laser beams.  :cool:    

The difference is that with your compound you had energy to burn.  Heck the last one I had delivered 86 # of KE.  A real good longbow is in the 30-35 # of KE.  So instead of ultra lite arrows going fast we go for heavier arrows going slower and maximizing penetration.

Mike

wingnut, what kinetic energy woould that compound have using the same heavy arrow that the longbow is using ?
ChuckC