Shoot 45# to 57# pound long bows with 600 gr too 800 gr arrows MFX 500s  with 200 gr  too 300 gr very sharp Tuskers or Grizzlies up front.  Full penetration and very dead, bows shoot very quiet and smooth. Some of my bows will be noisier and rattle with lighter arrows, good strings like SBDs help on quieting them. Good Luck

They all "work" if flying well and not hurting your bow.

The "faster flatter" craze is a product of compound bows, and sights!!! and their shooters coming to trad archery and , no offense, is a "method" some seek to find an easier path to better shooting over just practicing and also a product of LONG range 3D type practicing.

KE is a TOTAL energy........NOT energy of forward motion....that would be Momentum.

KE is a tool of mfg companies that CAN build a bow to throw a few fps faster with light arrows and say "LOOK ......MORE KE" simply because it squares the velocity.   Measure momentum of fast and light versus slower and heavier.........not a lot of difference, both are adequate for deer, an with actual measured (if you must) speeds the heavier arrows WILL wow you.

If you need to ask yourself (I dont) which will be the best penetrator.....ask yourself one question.

While for whitetail, the question is moot (IMHO) if you were to leave tomorrow to trad hunt for rhino.........how much would your arrows of choice weigh?......and how come?     :D    

Inside, everyone knows which will be the weight picked if really NEEDING the extra penetration. The personal choice for whitetail can be altered a bit.......but the same rules apply.

Kinda a no brainer but again, for whitetail......shoot what you like but like the above posts state. Out of SLOWER bows by and large, decades ago 10 grains per lb of bow weight was considered ideal......and they HAD light arrows then too. Papa Bear wasn't a dummy and hunted more than most of us ever will.

Personally, every time I feel the "inspiration" to pick up a calculator for something trad....I resist.

For me, that isn't what it's all about.

2 cents.
God Bless

Many spend w/o a thought to get this speed that speed and this kinetic energy and that kinetic energy. Then try to get by with the lightest possible wt of an arrow. Some choose their hunting set-up based on 3D instead of the number one priority outcome use.


See 2010 Poll results after 526 Trad Ganger votes

Choose 1 less then 8 ggp 1% (6)
8 - 9 ggp 9% (48)
9 - 10 ggp 29% (150)
10 - 11 ggp 35% (182)
11 - 12 ggp 16% (86)
12 - 13 ggp 7% (36)
more then 13 ggp 3% (18)


The complete arrow design is the significant factor when it comes to lethality. Moderate draw wt increases gains pale in comparison to an enhanced arrow design. Why squander the opportunity? Sure light arrows and great shots can work but why decrease you chances and increase the chances for an unrecovered animal. Plan and count on the unexpected. Animals move and our aim is not always true. Our quarry deserves better.

That's just a part.http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/

Penetration is the key to a killing shot, and momentum is more important than KE.  Mass weight has a much larger part in the momentum formula than it does in the KE formula. The old illustration is to throw a ping pong ball and a golf ball into a snow bank and see which goes in further even if the golf ball is slower.

Why heavy arrows... here is a practical demonstration for you...

Use the arrow you now shoot... that 430 grain jobber..

Now get your hands on a 600 or so grain arrow with something over say.. 18% FOC....

Go out in your yard... now throw your arrow as hard as you can just like a spear..... trying to get as much distance as you can...

Repeat  with 600 grain arrow....


That's why.....  :D

QuoteDumptruck & Volkswagen . . .  

Both leave a dead and flattened deer in the road.

If I were hunting moose or larger I would start practicing with a "heavy" arrow.  Currently I'm at about 580 gr with cedars and 630 gr with Douglas fir, both sporting 125/130 gr heads & 30-1/2" BOP length, out of my bows in the 55 to 60# ranges.  That's well and plenty for any shot on a whitetail and the trajectory is burned in my brain for shots out to 25 yards.  

No idea or concern over the FOC, EFOC or any other FOCing table of numbers.  

I use the old formula (like 20,000 years old) that a smaller head penetrates better.  I like the Magnus II 125 gr, the Stos 130 gr and even the RibTek 125S.  They're small and easy to sharpen.  Rugged enough to practice on stumps.  They fly well.  They come out the other side even after meeting a rib on each side.

Just remember your average shot will be inside of 20yrds. Trajectory/speed not much of an issue at those distances. If majority of your hunting is out west then trajectory is a bigger issue.

Dangerous game is killed with heavier and slower bullets than most guns. Same theory works with arrows and trad bows.Just forget 90% of your compound theories and you'll do fine.

Just food for thought...

If you go too light with your arrows, you could do damage to your bow.  

In general, You should be fine anywhere from 9 grains to 12 grains per inch.

Keep it fun, once it becomes too technical it defeats the purpose for me.

QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpkiller:
 

QuoteDumptruck & Volkswagen . . .  

Both leave a dead and flattened deer in the road.

[/b]

But the Dump Truck would still be on the road and the Volkswagen would be in the ditch with all four wheels in the air...  :D

So the moral of the story is: sell your trad bow and buy a dump truck???  :cool:

Most of these reply are right on.  As with any question there very rarely is on simple answer. One bleeding kills,but if you are hunting from an elevated position and you place a good shot but high with only an entry hole then the animal must fill up with blood before leaving a blood trail.  Thus if you have more momentum and have the exit hole then you will have a great blood trail.

Secondly, what are you hunting, a deer or say a wild Boar.  With the wild Boar you need more momentum than you do for a deer.  

Lastly, when it comes to penetration what style of hunting blade are you using.  I remember learning a valuable lessen several years back.  I had for the most part only used two blades for hunting and they were the Bear and the Zwickey.  Then came along the Snuffer and I thought what a bleeder this would make.  On the first couple of deer that I shot you talk about a blood trail looked as thought the deer was dropping cups full of blood.  Then came the draw back of large mult blades.  I made a shot from a very elevated position and I hit high.  The arrow lodged in the spine without breaking the spine or entering the spinal cord. That head style by its very nature needs very high momentum if hitting something with high resistance.  The single blade offers less resistance as it is penetrating.  Another example of the same thing, I can remember when the first expanding blades come out and the compound guys were using them with very light arrows, high speed but when they hit the got no penetration.  Too much resistance for the momentum.  I am not running down any style broad just trying to show that if you use a head that has high resistance you must have high momentum.

I don't think that difference in mass weight is going to change how lethal your arrows are on deer-sized game.  Shoot a heavier arrow and see what you think.  It is never a free lunch.  Some are going to like the increased trajectory, others will prefer the softer, quieter shot.

Javi - I used the same demonstration last week however with a 608 gn 32.4% Ultra-EFOC arrow.

The look on their faces could be described as 'total bewilderment'.

IMHO, the number one reason for poor penatration is poor arrow/bow tuning. Think of it this way, if the arrow is flying true, at point of impact, it has all the weight of the arrow to drive the BH home. If the arrow is in parodox and/or wobbling, much of the transfered energy is wasted. Why is armor always angled? To deflect energy of a direct hit. Getting all the weight of a arrow directly behind a sharp BH is what it's all about. Tuning is paramount but often overlooked.

JL

QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
Javi - I used the same demonstration last week however with a 608 gn 32.4% Ultra-EFOC arrow.

The look on their faces could be described as 'total bewilderment'.

Yep... their jaws really drop...    

I keep a couple of the high FOC arrows in my bin just for that reason...

JL,

That is a good point that the Ashby reports emphasize.  I was surprised how much penetration could be lost due to a planing, wobbly or mispined arrow.

That is why I'm about to do the whole start from scratch bareshaft thing myself (I'm pretty new to this).  

The Extreme FOC stuff in the Ashby reports was also very interesting.  So I'll also be loading at least 200 grains up front on my new arras.

Don't know why (maybe I read it), but my weight metaphor is a same speed paperclip (opened) vs. a pencil.

The good news in all this is that everyone who takes the time to tune their bows and to get good arrow flight will become better shooters, which translates to cleaner kills! Deer aren't especially hard to kill, so weight isn't as important. But when you hunt hogs, or go after elk and larger game, then penetration is king.

When hunting hogs I have found that using an arrow at least 10 grains per pound and EFOC have shown much better penetration results. Out of my 55lb palmer recurve I am shooting 55/75 with brass inserts and 200gr phantoms and they have gone through most hogs I have shot. I shot a 230lb pound boar with an extemely thick shield and the arrow got stuck in the shield on the other side. Without the EFOC I don't think i would have gotten that boar.

Anybody done that hand-launch test with a 600 gr arrow using a 125 gr head (i.e. wood) vs. a 600 grain arrow using a 175 gr head (i.e. carbon fiber)?  

And then repeat it holding only the nock when throwing it.