Ok...so shoot me. I'm going to try hard to up my FOC. After talking to Doc Ashby he convinced me to try to get higher foc. I'm only 23%.

We laughed that it seems we begged for heavier carbons... now we have them, but till we get all the EFOC front weight, we've now end up with some very heavy shafts.  Mine are over 615 gr. and I need mroe front weight and stiffer spine.

I'm shooting GT5575's now, but can't seem to get more'n 275 front weight w/out going weak. My riser is cut 3/16 past center and I shimmed it out 3/16 to center.

Not a lot of shelf left!    

If anyone knows of a reasonably affordable STIFF , but lightweight carbon shaft, I'd like recommendations?

Thanks!

You could try a GT 75/95 Ultralight and you can use a heavier point to get more FOC.I find that tapered carbons are alittle easier to get more FOC,like AD Nitro Stingers these are stiff and light weight.Nitro stingers come in 4 spines sizes I believe,a yellow label real light for lighter weight bows.Then orange label is alittle stiffer,then green label alitte stiffer and the stiffest is the gold label.

John,

I appreciate that information. I will put that data in the grist mill as others chime in so I have some varied options.

I'm a big fan of OL Adcock's posted "Bare shaft planning method" of tuning arrows.

I've got new limbs coming that are a bit lighter than current ones, but they're carbon/foam core, so they might just require even stiffer spine than what I have now!!!

So many variables.    And we thought that stick bows were "simple".  They are...but they've got a lot of things to tinker with! Gotta love it!

what weight are you pulling?

Avoid wood grain or camo shafts.They add extra weight that you don't need.

When I jump from 5575's to 7595's,I get a lot more FOC but also quite a bit more overall weight.I went from a 5575 weighing 585 grs to a 7595 weighing 709 grs.Most of the weight increase is in front.I believe I went from 21% to 28% FOC.

The GT Entradas are light weight and cheap.It is what I use when I don't want to shoot a log for an arrow.

Hello David

Looks like the CX maxima  in 350 is about 8 grains per inch and has a deflection of about 0.350 so its pretty stiff.The 55/75s are around 0.400 or so I believe and are weaker spined.

I think you need something with around 0.350 spine deflection since the 55/75s spine a little over 0.400 and get too soft wiith over 275 grians up front and also the lightest grains per inch you can find.To be stiff enough to shoot out of your bows and still be somewhat light with the EFOC you are seeking.

Maybe around 7 grains per inch of shaft and approximatly 0.350.Not sure if something like thats out thier.Maybe in more of a 3-D type carbon vs hunting style carbon

I just checked the CX website a bit ago and the maxima or maxima hunter? was lighter than most the other ones they had per inch with the stiffness you were looking for.

that one would way approximatly 225 grains as a bare shaft cut to 30 inches and no insert, knocks or fletchings.

I like the GT Ultralight Entradas.  I have used the 400's for a 53 lb bow and got 33% FOC and I think 650 gr.

I also use the Entrada 300 for my 71 lb. bow.  They are 32.9% FOC and weight 820 gr.

Thanks, Guys. Yeah, JimB, the wood grain or camo really ads the weight..  :(  

I've never paid much attention to the deflection but am now... As Eric pointed out...the CX might be good or any other that is around the .340-.350 without adding a lot of gr/inch.  Even the black GT 7595 are only 8.9/inch at .340.

I'll have to pay more attention to the CX Maxima.

Richie, I saw that there are several "ultra light" types now on GT's website. I have to see what deflection they are and all that but some are down to Eric's thought of 7.4 gr.

Larry, I'm not pulling much weight and dropping down with the new-to-me limbs on their way soon. Thing is that after researching a lot years back and consulting OL Adcock, I learned that the amount of riser center cut (or past center) really requires much stiffer spine.

I had shafts that were shooting weak bare shaft for me and were shooting really, really STIF for friends. I was pulling then 54# and they were shooting 67#. Difference? Mine was a recurve cut 3/16 past center and they were shooting 13# MORE weight, but out of a longbow cut 1/8" SHY of center. Big difference. More center cut requires stiffer spine per draw weight!

Beman ICS Bowhunter 340 is 9.3 gpi, same as your 55/75, and they dont any more affordable.

Eric

Only other difference on those bows Possibly Dave other than theirs being cut 1/8th shy of center and the 54# er being 3/16th past center.Is that I am thinking thier bows are more traditional longbows being 1/8th out from center and not as effecient as your Morrison curve which is a more high performance bow?

Strings could play a role as well if they were shooting a fat string or possibly B-50.Or vice versa.

Draw length needs to be considered too in the equation.

Your right though about how the deep the sight window is cut into the riser effecting stiffness of the arrow needed and that is quite a bit of difference between what bare shafted weak for you and stiff for them out of bows with a 13 # difference.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic and I am a relative greenhorn with carbon compared to guys who have more experience testing all these parameters in search of the perfect carbon arrow and EFOC.

I am happy and impressed with what I have experimented with so far but have not shot as much weight up front as many guys do.I will be looking into it more.Especially for larger game.I am probably looking at trying a 0.350 or so deflection arrow with more weight up front soon.

Checked CX, GT and Beeman's sites tonite. Nobody has much that is below 8.2 gr. in the .340/.350 deflection.

GT Vapors are below that, but I've never heard of them or how they hold up... don't want something that is fragile as that would also defeat the purpose.

Eric, if you get into some .350 Maximas and want to split a dozen...we should talk!  

We'll have to hook up by phone one day when the boy is not missing his dad and chat about all those other variables on bows!  

I shoot the Maxima 350's out of 60-65 pound recurves with 100 grain brass inserts and 200 to 250 grain points.  Bare shaft well for me when cut to 29".  Kinsey's is close to you and sells by the half dozen.  I believe Lancaster Archery does too.  Not cheap, I think they are about $65 per half dozen, but I have found them to be very durable.

Regarding arrow strength....

My GT Ultralight 300 has a 3" 2117 footing under a 1.5" 2317 footing, 100 gr. brass insert and 330 grain field point.  Like I mention, 820 gr. at 32.9% FOC.

Today I shot that arrow with 71 lbs. into a 3/4" sheet of steel.  The brass insert collar and field point shaft broke off.  The arrow is 100% unhurt.  I feel sure it was due to the protective footings.  And now it is good to go.

Victory makes the V-Force HV shafts really, really light, and there's also the CT Cheetahs, close out Easton Lightspeeds, GT ultralights, etc.

Ultra-light carbon shafts are out there, but they are very brittle and will crack in all the wrong places.  Keep a good eye on them always...

Can't beat the ICS bowhunters for the money, though now that CX raised the cost on the Terminator Lites.

Looks like the maxima cut to 29.5 with fletchings and nock approximatly 35 grains would be 260 grains.Add 300 up front for 560 grain finished arrow.Maybe a 50 grain brass insert with 100 grain screw in steel broadhead adapter and 150 grain head glued on.Or 75 grain steel screw in insert,100 grain brass insert and 125 grain  glue on head.

Its 65 grains lighter anyway than your currant setup and gives you alot of weight up front.I have no idea what % forward of center this arrow would have?

Sure Dave we will have to chat it up sometime and I will be in the market for some arrows in late summer as hunting season approaches and if we can pair on a dozen that would be great.

I am kinda looking at these CX piledrivers a bit right now.But that would be a really heavy arrow loaded up with EFOC.Heavier than what we are speculating about here anyway.10.5 grains per inch or so.

Some of these lighter GPI shafts may very well be very durable when the front end is reinforced as Richie is doing with his.

Carbon Express maxima.  Enough said.

Doc,what kind of total arrow weight are you wanting?I think with 7595's you would be looking at 700 grs or a little over.

I have a 53# recurve cut 3/16" past center and am shooting Vapor Pro 300's out of it.That sounds incredibly stiff but they have 430 grs up front.The Vapor Pro 300's are 8.2 gr per inch-lighter than the 7595's (.340).I ended up with a 714 gr arrow and I think about 29% FOC.The heavy weight isn't as bad as it sounds.When I drop from 714 grs down to 620 grs,I only gain 10 fps.

I have been also eyeballing CT Panthers which are a continuous taper shaft,.340 deflection and I think,8.7-8.5 gr per inch.The inside diameter is parallel,not tapered and they use the standard inserts and nocks as other 5/16" shafts like Gold Tips.They are more expensive at up to $120 per dozen,depending on where you get them.

Last yr. a guy posted on here that he was using Forge Extremes,31% foc and total wt. of 595g.

fwiw and imo ... carbon shaft/arrow spine is subjective at best and lots really depends on how you shoot yer arrows - what your form and physique brings to the shooting equation (important!).  

for some folks, messing with front end weight can really make arrows fly BAD.  for others, a difference of 200 grains is almost meaningless.  dittos for shaft spine.  

it all comes downs to trialing/testing.  there really is no substitute.  

imo, all the arrow making theoretical formulas are at best ballpark attempts.  

what works best for me, and maybe not you, is using a much weaker than suggested carbon shaft spine and LOTS of front end weight.

i want a hunting arrow to be at least 10gpp, for good flight, a quieter bow on release, good penetration.  if i can distribute a good part of that weight to the front of the arrow, i find the arrow 'tracks' better - i dunno if that efoc thing aids penetration.  

for me, it's not rocket science, it's whatever seems to work best ... for me.

as always, ymmv.