Dryad static recurve ILF limbs and riser

wingnut · February 07, 2010, 06:58:00 AM

We need to work a couple more sets into the schedule this week so we can get data points for the formulas. If we can get it done, we'll take orders starting next week.

Mike

Lenny Stankowitz · February 07, 2010, 10:53:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by Jim Casto Jr:
194 fps and 9 gpp at 28" draw?! Gee Whiz! Can't wait to hear a lot more about that.

That is pretty darn good performance for sure but I'm a little confused as to why it seems so unreasonable. At 9 gpp there are a number of limbs on the market that that will reach those speeds with a finger release, or at least be within the margin of error with different chronos.

I looked on Blacky's site just for a comparison and found for example...

Predator Classic 28" draw, 9gpp shot with fingers was 193 fps.

TradTech Titan with Extreme BF limbs (med) 190 fps.

DAS 21" ILF, stock limbs - 189 fps

For comparison purposes, when you did the testing on the new Dryad limbs, what preload setting were you using? On the prototype riser, it looks like they're bottomed out pretty good.

Congratulations, those are some pretty impressive numbers!!

February 07, 2010, 11:14:00 AM

Lenny,

Unreasonable, may not be the best term to use, but your numbers do speak volumes as to why Dryad's numbers may be very interesting and exciting. The BF Extremes, by all accounts, are fabulous limbs, the Dalaa, was designed expressly to offer maximum performance in a hunting bow for archers with short draws, and the Predator... well... we've all heard great things about them for years. Here, we're talking about a "first shot" prototype riser and wood/glass limbs. In other words a notion of what should work well, and... BOOM... on par with arguably the best of the best.

I think that's darned impressive.

Side note: I like the way those limbs look on that TAC Firefly too.

Lenny Stankowitz · February 07, 2010, 11:46:00 AM

I agree Jim. That's one of the beautiful things about ILF though. People like Wingnut don't have to reinvent the wheel every time they want to try something new. Much of the R&D has already been done...on someone else's dime. All the new people have to do is plug their own specific ideas into that formula and see what happens.

Materials can be tweaked, limb pad angles can be tweaked, riser materials can be experimented with, limb profiles can be tweaked, etc., etc, etc., but the "basic recipe" was has been the same for decades.

I couldn't agree more, it is VERY impressive. To a large extent though, the "system" allows for a much shorter learning curve.

trashwood · February 07, 2010, 12:30:00 PM

keep in mind the numbers are kinda my numbers and pretty informal. Mike and Jason will do a f/d curve on the limbs before they release them. that is the numbers I'd hang my hat.

I do have a prediction......the limbs are going to be pretty quick.

as an archer that bow hunts it still kinda bothers me that speed is evidently the highest criteria a limbs is judged by

. wait to ya feel the draw on these limbs. then the feel and speed might be equal surpirses

rusty

wingnut · February 07, 2010, 12:34:00 PM

Lenny,

They were 2 turns off the bottom on the riser, so in the middle of the preload.

Yep Earl Hoyt had a great idea so many years ago. It's amazing it took this long to get to hunting bows.

It seems that our static really likes the ILF format.

Mike

Lenny Stankowitz · February 07, 2010, 01:36:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Lenny,

They were 2 turns off the bottom on the riser, so in the middle of the preload.

Mike

That right there might account for 4 or 5 fps. I know with my Titan, (and others) there is a brass collar that limtis how far you can bolt the limbs down. The width of the collar itself is approximately 3 turns out from "bottomed out." So, what you consider the "middle" of the preload range is tighter than the absolute highest preload setting on mine.

It would be interesting to see what the numbers would be if all parameters were constant, including limb pad angles. Could what appears to be a screamer of a limb, actually be more a function of limb pad angle? I wonder how say a SKY single carbon limb would perform on your prototype riser with the same amount of preload? Or a Black Max limb or a DAS limb? Unless you test a limb on the same platform, the numbers don't really mean much. Especially in the case of ILF limbs where they are designed to go on any number of different risers.

That's why I really like Blacky's site. I know he takes great pains to make sure everything is consistent.

Are you planning to send him a set?

ryan brodrick · February 07, 2010, 02:56:00 PM

if the limbs are quiet and really smooth at a different limb pad angle then that might be the angle where those limbs are most efficient. the hoyt angles work great for the geometries of the recurves they were designed with. when you change the limb geometry you may also have to change the limb pad angle to optimize the limb angles.

yes, a pair of black maxes or skys might be just as fast but will they be just as smooth and quiet? my guess is that they will not be as smooth or as quiet as a static limb when you start taking them out of the efficient geometries they were intended to be used with.

ex. look at the limb pad angle on high performance longbows. would you suggest to match the recurve limb pad angles to match the longbows for a more fair comparison? i wouldnt.

so.. evening out all the variables to test only speed may or may not be relevant. in my experience speed is easy. speed, smoothness and good timing (quietness/low vibe) is not.

i think for testing, limbs and brace should be set at their optimums for whatever shooting you plan on doing the most. draw length has to be considered.

a few more twists on the limb bolts may give you a few fps but it might also make your bow loud and less smooth at a given draw length.

every limb/riser combo is going to have a most efficient setting of timing/brace/angles dependant on how far the limbs are being drawn. with an adjustable limb pad angle and ability to change brace ht we can tweak a little bit in different directions but there will still be a "best" setting. limb length will also influence where this best setting is. a really short bow will have different "settings" for better efficiency at a given draw than will too-long limb but there will still be a best set up for a given draw. we choose and modify all this based on what kind of bow we are wanting to set up (short hunting bow or long target bow or something in between).

..harder to compare apples to apples sure.. but what i really want to do is compare the entire platform vs. platform and see which combo is best for my PERSONAL SHOOTING REQUIREMENTS.

lots of variables.

looking forward to data.

awesome looking limbs and terriffic price!!

rightminded · February 07, 2010, 02:56:00 PM

Well, i know nothing except what i see and read. I wonder if a 62" bow will be in the mix of options? I might just sell a widow and order one.

rightminded · February 07, 2010, 03:00:00 PM

I forgot, i like that wood handled bow with the static limbs. It looks like a hunting bow to me.

wisconsin wood butcher · February 07, 2010, 03:20:00 PM

great stuff you guys

wingnut · February 07, 2010, 04:41:00 PM

Billy,

With our riser you can get a 62" curve with XL limbs.

Mike

George D. Stout · February 07, 2010, 05:07:00 PM

Mike, are you coming to Denton Hill this year? I would love to shoot one of those. These static curves are really semi-static aren't they?
They appear to have a bit of an opening.

wingnut · February 07, 2010, 05:10:00 PM

George nope they are static. But there is no such thing as semi static. It's static or working. Semi static is like a little bit pregnant. LOL

Yep we'll be there.

Mike

Lenny Stankowitz · February 07, 2010, 05:18:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by ryan brodrick:
..harder to compare apples to apples sure.. but what i really want to do is compare the entire platform vs. platform and see which combo is best for my PERSONAL SHOOTING REQUIREMENTS.

True enough, BUT... by only looking at one specific platform, you defeat the entire purpose of the ILF system. The whole purpose of the ILF system was, and is, to have a "universal" limb attachement so that it will fit, and perform, on a variety of different risers.

I really don't think this is the case with Wingnuts new limb but I would never even consider an ILF limb if it was designed to perform at it's best with only one riser. If I wanted that, I'd buy a bolt down.

The ILF system is designed to be adjustable in regard to preload, tiller, and a variety of different shooting styles, draw lengths, brace heights, etc., on a variety of different risers.

This is just my opinion but designing a "universal" limb that only works well on one riser will pretty much doom it in the marketplace. I'm guessing (quite certain actually) that Wingnut is smarter than that.

wingnut · February 07, 2010, 05:26:00 PM

Lenny,

You've been chipping about preload and special limb angles. Did you read the weights of the limbs by the pics?

Our 15" riser set two turns off was 40# (39.6) and the TAC 19" riser set two turns off was 35# (35.2)

That would indicate too me that the limb angle is pretty close to the same. Otherwise the weight would differ more the 4.4#s.

Mike

George D. Stout · February 07, 2010, 05:27:00 PM

Gotcha Mike.....I'm guessing you will have some there to play with?

wingnut · February 07, 2010, 05:32:00 PM

Yep George,we should have a bunch with us.

Mike

trashwood · February 07, 2010, 05:33:00 PM

Lenny - I have shot both the Dryad ILF recurve limbs and ILF long bow limbs on risers from 25" to 15". not only do i have a collection of several ILF riser but I have got the latest hot foam carbon limbs by severl manufactures to compare them to incucluding samick, borders, w&w.

mike did the f/d curve from several different risers with several of the foam/carbon, foam/glass, and glass/wood so he would have the info.

btw there is a difference in speed and draw weight between several of my 25" fita risers on a given set of limbs. when you start going down in riser lenght there is a quite a bit of difference even in the same lenght risers considering speed, draw weight and preload.

the fixture is universal not the riser configuration.

rusty

Lenny Stankowitz · February 07, 2010, 05:55:00 PM

I'm not "chipping" Wingnut, I just find the discussion interesting, that's all.

Pictures can be deceiving but it looks to me like the limb pad angle on your riser is closer to vertical than that of the other. Maybe not. What is the limb pad angle on your prototype?

In your defense, if the limb performs well on your riser it should perform equally well on risers of the same (or close) geometry. My previous post was more in response to ryan's post than any of yours.

That's why I said it would be interesting to see what the numbers are when ALL things are consistent. That way you know what is "limbs" and what is "riser."