Hey all! I have a two-part question. I'm putting a hunting bow and arrows together for the WV & VA mountains.   

1) Tradtech limb length. I'm 5'6" with a 26-inch recurve draw length. I had planned on getting the 19-inch Titan 3 riser and pairing it with medium limbs for a 62-inch bow. Given I'm vertically challenged, would it make sense to go with short limbs for a 60-inch bow? I get that speed comes from shorter limbs with stability and forgiveness coming from longer limbs - but with such a short draw, would the shorter limbs serve me better?   

2) Arrows. I've been eyeing Gold Tip Traditional XT hunting arrows. At 50-54 lbs. of draw weight at a 29-inch arrow with a 150-grain broadhead, it's calling for a 400 spine. However, I think I plan on using a 3-blade VPA 175-grain broadhead (and this isn't an option on the chart). Because of this, I'll likely opt for the 340 spine.  If need be, I can either shorten my arrows a bit or add a screw-in weight at the front to weaken/stiffen the spine.

My question is, this would put me at 511.8 grains of total finished arrow weight at 15% FOC. Sounds great - but that equates to (given the several calculators and AI models I've used) to around 168 FPS - which is around 32.02 ft lbs. of kinetic energy and around 0.381 slugs of momentum. Which is draw dropping to me coming from a 75lb compound where I would shoot close to 300 ft per second with around 90 ft lbs. of kinetic energy and 0.60 slugs of momentum.

Are these recurve arrow specs enough for VA & WV whitetail deer and perhaps the occasional medium-sized eastern black bear? I'll never be chasing elk or moose out west, but I want to be sure these numbers seem accurate and reasonable to those of you who have been successful in hunting with traditional archery.

Thanks,
Travis

That set up would be fine for deer and bear.  Are you saying you will be drawing 50-54 lbs at your draw length? If so the 340 shaft would work with some tinkering.  Are you going to bare shaft tune to your bow ?  If so i would probably buy a test kit with the different spine arrows that you could play with.  Don't try to compare to your compound experience.  There are some really good arrow experts on here that will hopefully jump on shortly.  Ken Beck (long time owner of Black Widow bows before he retired?) has an excellent you tube video on bare shaft tuning.  Chris Spikes also has a really good you tube video on bare shaft tuning.  Good luck in your quest!

Thank you for your reply. No, I don't mean to imply that I'll be drawing 50-54 lbs at my draw length; that's the variable of weight provided on the Gold Tip spine chart. With 55 lb. limbs, I'll likely be at 50-52 @ a 26 inch draw with a 19 inch riser and medium limbs, maybe a smidge more with short limbs?

Yes, I've been bare shaft-tuning for 20 years and will be doing so with the recurve. It's a must. I start with full-length shafts and cut down as needed. But, at the same time, I also don't want to buy 3 different spines of arrows. Calculators, simulators, and AI will get you close, then it's trial and error with bare shaft, fletched arrows, and then again with broadheads.

My concern was 168 fps (hopefully) out of a 50-ish pound recurve with such little kinetic energy and momentum in a hunting situation. Having said that, I did use SEVR 1.5 cut mechanical broadheads and would find my arrow dug fletching deep into the ground 15 yards past a complete passthrough.... so I may be overthinking this.. especially with razor sharp COC broadheads.

Recurve limbs are designed for maximum efficiency at a particular draw length.  My guess is that the 19" Tradtech riser and medium limbs are designed for maximum efficiency at a 28" draw length.  If I'm correct, with your 26" draw you would be closer maximum efficiency with short limbs, which would make a 60" bow.

I would choose to go with a .400 spine shaft, and if that turns out fo be too weak, to stiffen it by cutting the shaft shorter.  You have 2" available to cut, which can make a huge difference in dynamic spine.

As far as performance is concerned, it is what it is.  You might as well compare performance with a 30-06 as with a compound.  We all choose to hunt with a traditional bow knowing its limitations.  The bow and arrow combination you are considering is adequate for the game you want to hunt.

Thank you for your reply. You're correct, maximum efficiency is at a 28-inch draw. It seems you're right (assuming AI and calculators are correct, but they seem reasonable), with short limbs, I should be right around the 54lb mark @ a 26 inch draw with a 19 inch riser.

My only issue with the 400 spine arrows is that they are 9.2 GPI as opposed to the 340 arrows that are 10.5 GPI. Even if they worked at 29 inches, that's 477 total arrow weight (significantly less if I have to start chopping off inches of arrow due to spin issues), or 8.83 grains per pound - which is under the 10 GPP threshold I was trying to stay around (even the 340 is around 9.46 GPP, but it's closer).

I agree with you about performance, and I didn't mean to open a can of worms. It was just quite shocking to see the differences once I ran the numbers. To your point, I'm making the change because I want simplicity, and I want hunting to be fun again. Shooting a space-aged bow with all of its advantages and costly accessories lost its appeal and was no longer fun or challenging for me. Using the latest Matthews flagship with the latest and greatest sights, peeps, and releases kinda felt like using a gun; they make it hard to miss these days.

I'll take my 168 fps 

Does the riser come in a shorter length.  You would be better off with a 58-60-inch bow at your draw length.  A 17 inch riser and medium limbs, even short limbs would be a better fit.

If you have a 26-inch draw, why do you want an arrow that's 29 inches behind the point? Regardless, you're thinking way too heavy spine.  With a 29-inch arrow and 150 up front, a 500 carbon will be plenty, If you shorten the arrow to 27 BOP, you might need to go to 400s.

Don't get too wrapped up in FPS, kinetic energy, momentum, etc. Those stats are a way to compare the relative performance of bows, but don't have much practicality in the deer woods.  A mid-weight recurve with an arrow to match is great plenty for deer.

Good luck.   

Thank you for your reply. Yes, the riser does come in a 17 or 19-inch version. You brought up an interesting point, and I'm looking at the possibility of the 17-inch riser and short limbs (58-inch bow) to get as much performance as I can out of my 26-inch draw length - pending string angle isn't crazy. It would seem the 19-inch riser with short limbs (60-inch bow)  gives the bow a little more zip while still providing a hospitable string angle, so I may go this route instead.

I was interested in a 29-inch arrow because it fits a decent mid-weight arrow profile (500-ish grains), puts the broadhead well in front of my hand, and still allows for 15% FOC. Sort of a sweet spot. If I change that, then arrows become too light, FOC gets wonky, and I sacrifice somewhere else in the setup.  I'm planning to shoot 175-grain broadheads with the standard 12.1-grain accu-lite inserts, so that's a total of 187 (with the insert) up front, not 150.

I've attached the Gold Tip chart for reference - a 500 spine arrow would likely be severely under-spined in this application. it calls for a 400 with 150 up front - but again, I plan on shooting 175-grain broadheads, hence the reasoning in jumping to a 340 (which also gives me the GPI I'm looking for). 

I wasn't going to respond to this part - but I feel like I need to. This is the internet, this forum and topic will be indexed by the web crawlers and returned in searches, likely by new shooters looking for advice. I would disagree about not getting too wrapped up in FPS, kinetic energy, or momentum. These numbers are the science behind the shot. You have to make a decision about the shaft, insert, broadhead, knock, and fletching. I don't see any reason not to use the information that's given to you (and that can be readily plugged into an online calculator) to make your setup as efficient and lethal as it can be. By doing so, you're making data-driven, informed decisions as opposed to just accepting 'good enough'. Don't get me wrong, 25 years ago I didn't care at all about any of that, but times have changed, and the information age is upon us. We as bowhunters put in too much time and effort, and spend too much money on this sport, not to have physics on our side when it matters most in the woods.

-Travis

If you want to go to a shorter arrow, you can easily increase arrow weight by changing insert and or point adaptors as well as broadheads, and likely increase your FOC in the process, which most consider a good thing.   

Keep in mind, too, that arrow charts are starting points.  They get you in the ballpark. From there, it's trial and error, bare shafting, paper tuning, etc. My recommendation is based on about 70 years of experience. A 500 spine is about 63#@28 inches. The extra arrow length you're considering at 29 inches, softens the dynamic spine.  I misspoke a bit in my previous post.  If you shortened the arrow, the 500s would likely be just fine  But if you keep them long, I agree the 500s might be a bit soft and the 400s might be necessary. A 340 is 92#@28 inches.  I can't believe that would ever work. 

How much kinetic energy does one need to kill a deer? I don't know, but I do know there is not agreement on the figure.  Those coming from the compound point of view suggest a KE that a lot of trad bows can't even reach. And, of course, various figures are profered depending on the species of critter being hunted. 

I'm not anti-science.  As I said initially, things like fps, kinetic energy, momentum, etc., are useful parameters on which to compare equipment. However, things get wierd when one starts specifying/believing that a certain level of one or the other is needed to kill a critter  There are a lot of opnions as to what those levels are, but I've seen very little research to back them up. All I'm trying to suggest is that one not let that override common sense and experience in making decisions about bow/arrow combinations.  Good luck. 


Quick edit/addition.  Regarding the graph above, it looks like it uses arrow length as a surrogate for draw length.  There's a substantial difference in spine requirement between a 29-inch shaft drawn 26 inches vs that same shaft drawn 29 inches.     

 

I think you would be happier with the shorter 17" riser if you truely have a 26" draw length.

How are you measuring your draw length? to the back of the riser? or the belly side of the shelf? or deepest part of the grip? The deepest part of the grip + 1.75" is where it should be measured, or to the back of the riser shelf. Most traditional bow grips are real close to 1.75" deep from belly to back of the grip.

50# of bow will kill anything in north america. Shooting traditional bows is all about shot placement. but that's true for any bow you are shooting.  I'd concentrate on arrow tunning, and shooting form more than crunching numbers on KE and arrow speed.

With that being said, a faster arrow does have a flatter trajectory and helps a lot shooting different yardages with accuracy. I prefer an arrow with a 12-15% foc myself, and use brass inserts for extra up front weight. If you keep your arrows shorter, and use more up front weight, your spine requirements will change. I think you could easily tune either 500 or 400 spine arrows in that draw weight. I wouldn't worry about getting down to 9GPP arrow weight either. You'll still blow right through a deer hit in the right spot.     

BTW.... There are options available to have custom ILF limbs built too that are higher in performance. Feel free to contact me if that might interest you. I build some pretty nice static tip ILF limbs, as well as hybrid long bow design. These can be built draw length specific too.

Kirk

Thanks for your reply Kirk. So, I had a 27-inch draw with my compound when using about a 1/2  inch D-loop and a spot hogg wise guy release. I'll admit, this was just a smidge short for me, but it was comfortable when drawing 75 lbs.  With the method that you mentioned, I'm probably right at 27 inches for the recurve draw length (which I'll take all day long, short guys get what they can, where they can).

I live in Ecuador. Right now, crunching numbers is as good as it gets. I will say that I believe understanding arrow specs is equally important as form and practice. I'm the type of OCD person that needs to know everything about my setup and arrows - to a fault. I get that not everyone is as interested in every detail as I am - but for me, it's a part of the hobby. I'm 40 and semi-retired. Once I come back to the US for a visit in the coming months, I'll bring my setup back with me to Ecuador - and have the ability to shoot daily in preparation for next October.

As someone who has taken my share of animals in over 25 years of bowhunting, I would agree with you that shot placement trumps all. The best of broadheads and arrows are ill-fated if not put in a vital area. The key to this is proper form and practice (knowing your arrows and their specs doesn't hurt here either).

The 10GPI is a personal preference, and something I aim to adhere to. 9, 8, and below would, of course, work. I've had blistering pass-throughs with 6GPI arrows and 1.5 cut mechanical broadheads. I aim for 10 GPI to capitalize on momentum as well as the acoustic dampening benefits of heavier arrows.

-Travis

Well Travis.... Coming into the traditional archery world from using a compound bow there are trade offs. I too hunted with heavy draw weight compounds for many years and harvested many elk and deer. I even took a 300# Russian boar one year with one shooting 444 grain aluminum shaft arrows at 292 fps.

But like you, I wanted to experience the magic of traditional archery. It was a very humbling experience for me, and it changed my hunting style considerably. When I jumped into it, I went whole hog and started building my own bows. Then it took years of shooting 3D with experienced archers before I finally developed my form to the point that I was actually shooting instinctively. When I first started out I was short drawing 70-80# long bows, and struggled greatly with consistency.

 Then I dropped my draw weight down to 55-60# and worked on my alignment at full draw, and the significance of using steady back tension and follow through. This  changed my game completely. I increased my draw length to 30" using good alignment techniques, and quit consciously thinking about a release or an anchor point. The old saying that an anchor point is not a destination, it's just part of the conclusion is very true.

Once you get to the point where you can comfortably let your subconscious do your aiming, and just concentrate on your shot placement. That's when you really start appreciating the magic of traditional archery.

I wish you the best on your adventure. Don't get too bogged down with all the numbers, and concentrate on your form and just becoming the arrow.... Kirk