Quote from: Burnsie on May 07, 2025, 12:51:49 PM
Jon, is that a commercial dust collection system that you made modifications to, or did you build it from various separate pieces. 
Do you have any info on what you used  - I need something for my shop - would cut down on a lot of sweeping and runnning the shop vac.

If you want simple and lower cost you can get a big improvement with just a shop vac and Dust Deputy system. Biggest downsides are the vacuum is noisy and you can't run a large permanent duct network off it.


Mark

I lost all the good photos I had on photobucket when I first built mine back in about 2008.  But it was pretty simple...

I started out with a heavy duty plastic garbage can that I set on 3.5" blocks of wood. Then I built a round top that fit perfectly in the garbage can with a 6" hole in it. Then I built a cone from sheets of Formica I had left over from different jobs I did over the years and just taped it together with industrial sheet metal tape. The cone was about 4' high and 24" at the top. At the top I built a box about 10" high x 24" x 24" that the top of the cone fit into. Note.... I used another piece of Formica inside that top box that made a 24" circle. The 2 hp blower I mounted on the top of my spray booth and ran a 6" pipe to the box offsetting the hole so it came in on one corner so as to start the airflow in a circular motion or cyclone pattern.  Btw... that's what they call these things are "cyclone" dust collectors.  The pipe going to your equipment comes into the top portion of the cone like the picture Jon provided....  I made mine intake line 6" at that point and ran a 6" trunk line across the ceiling, then ran 4" drops to my machines. This increases the air volume using bigger pipes and picks up more fine airborne particles.  If you reduce the pipe size down to 2"  it will have more suction .... But... it will not pull the same volume of air. Always stay with a larger 4" line to your machines if possible.

Like I said before I just ran my exhaust outside, and it does blow a little dust outside, but not much really.

To empty my garbage can that has collected dust, I just pull out the blocks holding it in position and the top stays attached to the cone.... Crude but effective.

When I first built mine I used and old 10" furnace fan I had, and all kinds of pipe I had stashed under the shop. I used sewer pipe, stove pipe, furnace duct work and pvc pipe too.  The whole system took me a couple days to build,  but out of pocket expense was almost zero... I just used stuff I already had in the shop.

I ran that fan 10 years before it crapped out, and I bought a big 2 hp blower motor to replace it... that baby will suck a cat up a 4" line no problem...lol

There are a bunch of small setups that can be built for shop vacs instead of running a big blower too... check it out

https://www.google.com/search?q=home+made+dyclone+dust+collectors&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS764US764&oq=home+made+dyclone+dust+collectors&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTEzMzY3ajBqN6gCDrACAeIDBBgBIF8&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Burnsie,

I agree with everything Kirk said. 6" is the way to go if it fits into tour system. The only thing I dod different was to run 6" all the way to the tools. The reason is that it does not restrict the volume of air the fan is trying to pull. I did have a 6" drop that Y'd off to (2) 4" ports. It went vertical 7' before it turned horizontal towards the collector. With just one 4" gate open you could here the fan working hard and had some decent suction and good airflow. But when I opened both 4" gates you could here that fan breath and it would clear the whole line of heavier debris loke screws and such that 4" alone would not pull. One of those 4" lines was on a 20'x4"hose for cleaning the shop. The other went to a bandsaw.

I bought a 2ho Delta fan off FB Market place for $175

Oneida XL 6" Dust Deputy $240

The Merv 15 airfilters came from Pennstateind.com (2)$250/each

I soent time reading up on systems at Billpentz.com

This guy made it his life mission after suffering health issues due to poor dust collection while woodworking.

Good info if you like to get in the weeds.

Question. Im building my system, its a 1 1/2 hp wen. I was thinking about running my 4" pipe at about 40" off ground almost directly behind my equipment. My dust collection will be in my back garage wuth a rockler cyclone kit in a trash can. My thought is if I keep the pipe low I can just run 3-4' of flex to the machine off the Y's no need to suck the dust up the wall and long runs of pipe to get it up there. Where my collection will be is 2' below my shop. Do you think this will be more efficient or should I just run up to ceiling?

Jay anything thats airtight will work.  But youll absolutely be better off with as much of the widest hard line for the system for as long as you can manage before either going flexible or reducing size. If you can do it, reduce it right at your mahcine.

Edit: Read the question wrong i think that sounds good.

Quote from: Watsonjay on May 07, 2025, 11:05:58 PM
Question. Im building my system, its a 1 1/2 hp wen. I was thinking about running my 4" pipe at about 40" off ground almost directly behind my equipment. My dust collection will be in my back garage wuth a rockler cyclone kit in a trash can. My thought is if I keep the pipe low I can just run 3-4' of flex to the machine off the Y's no need to suck the dust up the wall and long runs of pipe to get it up there. Where my collection will be is 2' below my shop. Do you think this will be more efficient or should I just run up to ceiling?

I'd highly recommend using a 6" trunk line and use hard pipe as much as possible. The flex pipe slows the air velocity a certain amount.

I think if I had to build my system again, or should I consider doing a little remolding. I think I would put some shut off gates in the trunk line to help maintain higher pressure for my sanders closer to the fan. I don't use the line for my table saw anymore because the distance of the trunk across the ceiling , and the 4" drop line down to the saw were too great to pull the larger sawdust particles up 10' and it was getting clogged up too often. About the only thing I use my dust collection system for are the sanders anymore.      Kirk

I have a small shop and very little equipment. I have all my equipment on wheels and have to pull them off the wall to use. Drum sander , spindle sander, small edge sander, and bandsaw. My table saw is in another area of garage. Ill only have 5 connections with y's off of one straight pipe to the cyclone so only corners will be the y!s at each machine. Each machine will have a blast gate. You saying i should divide the straight pipe with another blast gate?  Each machine will have 3-4 foot flex so I can pull it away from wall to use, then push it back. Machines on one side of 10x20 shop workbench and wood/materials shelves on the other side. Desk at the end. Would you recommend an order to the equipment closest to dust collector first?

In theory .... If your system was truly air tight and pressurized,  it will not make any difference at all. But I've noticed a loss of air volume at the furthest drop and the efficiency is better closer to the blower. That's probably due to my home made blast gates that are not completely air tight, and I've got too many lines running off my trunk line. And.... It's a pretty red neck collection of piping. My whole cyclone system is almost 10' high.  Here are a few photos..

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cZ1QHYQbweBJHoDMA

In your case with only one straight trunk line, I see no advantage to putting blast gates in the trunk line. Can I assume your blast gates are at each drop location, and right at the Y before your flex line goes to the machine?  Are the blast gates working well? 

Why most guys are disappointed in their system is that they are not running a large enough blower, or using a shop vac . And... running 4" trunk lines with 2" drops cut the air volume way down. Even a 4" trunk with 4" drops will not be as efficient as a 6" trunk line.   A 10" blower like a standard furnace uses will work excellent. I ran one of those for years on my red neck dust collector just fine.

When I upgraded to a larger 2 hp blower I honestly didn't gain that much in my system... it makes more noise than the furnace fan did too.

I'm gonna put this out there from Bill Pentz's site. Although long, it's good information and a good goal to strive for in dust collection. This is what I used as a baseline when designing my system. An air meter to measure air speed is a great tool to have to see how your system is actually performing at the tool.

Food for thought.

This was written years ago and he highly promotes his own cyclone. The Oneida Dust Deputy I use has been amazing and for every 100 gallons of dust in my bin, I might have a quart of fine dust make it to the filters.

Good Collection
Good fine dust collection is a pain, particularly for woodworkers. Most incorrectly think we can eliminate our fine dust problems by wearing a good dual cartridge filtered mask whenever we make fine dust. A good respirator mask like this is a must because some shop activities create more dust than we can control. Others, including me at one time, foolishly believe that if we buy and install a good dust collector or cyclone with fine filters that we will end up well protected. Likewise, a good dust collector or cyclone also helps, but we still need to do more things to ensure we do not contaminate our offices, homes, and vehicles. Likewise, many wrongly believe that a good air cleaner will provide good fine dust protection, when in fact many air cleaners make things worse. To get fine dust well collected we need to know a lot more about dust collection. Here are some of the reasons why good fine dust collection poses more difficulty and expense than getting good fine dust protection or getting good "chip collection" which collects the same dust we sweep up with a broom.

National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) rules require collecting the heavier sawdust, chips, shavings, and wood strings that fall to our floors and work surfaces. Many experts call collecting this fallen material that we would otherwise sweep up with a broom "chip collection". Most small shop dust collectors, cyclones, and vacuums only do chip collection. Likewise most tools either have no built in dust collection or come with hoods that only provide good chip collection.

OSHA testing shows roughly every one hundred pounds of sawdust created contains about 5 pounds of airborne dust. By definition airborne wood dust consists of particles sized 30-microns and smaller. Airborne dust when vented outside settles slowly enough in typical outdoor breezes that it dissipates without a trace.

Airborne dust is fairly evenly distributed by weight meaning the weight of particles sized 0 to 10-microns is about the same as the weight of particles sized 10 to 20 microns and to 20 to 30-microns. This means about one third of airborne dust consists of fine invisible dust particles and the other two thirds consists of visible particles.

Visible airborne dust particles, meaning 10 to 30-microns quickly settle in normal room air currents. These visible airborne dust particles ruin freshly painted finishes. Traditional air cleaners filter off these larger visible airborne particles and protect our finishes.

By definition fine dust also known as inhalable dust by the medical world consists of fine dust particles sized under 10-microns. Because our eyes cannot see particles smaller than 10-microns without magnification, these particles are invisible. Even huge buildups of fine dust particles remain invisible. These fine dust particles are so fine and light they don't settle quickly in normal room air currents which is why they behave like an odor and rapidly fill all shared air. They are so fine and light they also almost never break the surface tension enough to harm our finishes. Unfortunately, these fine invisible dust particles go right past our bodies' normal protections and cause the most harm to our health. The different sized invisible fine dust particles cause problems in different areas of our respiratory systems as shown in the above particle distribution graphic. Most advertised fine filters for our shop vacuums, air cleaners, dust collectors, and cyclones along with too many dust mask filters freely pass fine dust particles right through so these things do a poor job helping to protect our health.

Woodworking makes huge amounts of fine dust compared to how little it takes to cause us harm. Based on carefully verified peer reviewed medical research, the EPA will shut down an office building if the airborne fine dust level exceeds more than 0.1 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/c3). Roughly one pound out of every twenty pounds of sawdust that we make consists of airborne dust and one third of this airborne dust consists of fine dust. One third of this dust is about 5 1/3 ounces by weight. There are 28349.5231 milligrams in each ounce so every twenty pounds of sawdust we make contains about 5 1/3 ounces which is over 151,000 milligrams. This is a lot! A typical two-car garage sized shop contains less than 100 cubic meters of air (about 90 c3), so just 10 milligrams of fine dust launched airborne will cause an average shop to fail an EPA air quality test. Our over 151,000 milligrams of fine dust in every twenty pounds of sawdust is enough fine dust to cause over 15,000 typical two-car garage sized shops to fail their EPA air quality tests. If we have a good dust collection that only misses 1% of the fine dust we still contaminate our shops with enough fine dust to cause 150 typical small shops to fail their air quality tests.

Woodworking makes lots of fine invisible dust even when using hand tools. To better understand think of wood as made up thin glass tubes lightly glued together. When we make that near perfect long shaving with our razor sharp hand plane at a microscopic level we actually drive a sharp steel wedge slashing through these glass tubes. The cutting shatters and launches all kinds of tiny airborne shards such as the particles shown on the electron microscope picture on the right. Many have written that their sensitive particle counters show almost every hand tool and other woodworking operation generates lots of fine dust even when we produce little or no larger sawdust particles.

Normal room air currents will keep fine dust airborne and these same air currents will launch previously made fine dust airborne repeatedly.

The fine dust takes a very long time to dissipate, particularly in closed shops.

Electron microscope images show fine wood dust with the same long sharp often barbed shapes found with asbestos and fiberglass which cause asbestosis and silicosis.

Although we make fine dust by the pound just two tiny thimblefuls of fine dust cause a large two-car garage sized shop to fail all of the different air quality tests both by weight and particle counts. We can launch this much fine dust by beating our shop apron.

Our tools lack the hoods needed to contain and control the faster moving air streams so they spray the fine dust away and miss collecting much of the fine dust.

Our dust collectors and cyclones move too little air to provide good fine dust collection. We all know when we put on vacuum hose on the blow port we can blow dust all over but that same hose when sucking will only pickup next to the nozzle. Air pulled by a vacuum comes from all directions at once so airspeed drops off at over twelve times the distance squared. In short, our vacuum lacks the incoming air speed needed to pickup except very close to the nozzle. The same is true for fine dust as normal room air currents will blow the fine dust away unless we move a huge volume of air right around the working areas of our tools. Those commercial firms that guarantee customer air quality long ago through careful testing and decades of experience developed tables that show exactly how much air we need to move near each of our stationary tools. They found most small shop stationary tools need about 1000 cubic feet per minute (CFM) of airflow to have good fine dust collection and only need about 350 CFM for good "chip collection". When we add the overhead resistance of our hoods, flex hose, ducting, and filters almost all dust collectors under 3 hp and cyclones under 5 hp fail to move this needed 1000 CFM.

Air at typical dust collection pressures will hardly compress so duct diameter and resistance sets maximum airflow at a given pressure. Most of our ducting and tool ports are too small to carry the needed air volumes.

The more air a blower moves the more power or amperage that the blower motor uses. If we shut off the airflow our blowers idle using the least power. If we open all up wide then our blower draws the most power. Dust collector blowers must overcome the resistance of our tool hoods, flex hose, ducting, and filters. Cyclone blowers must also overcome the high resistance from a cyclone forcing air to turn in a tight separation spiral. To overcome this resistance vendors use larger diameter impellers to create more pressure. It takes careful engineering to balance impeller size and resistance to get maximum motor performance without moving so much air the motor overloads and burns up. The top magazine rated dust collector vendor puts a warning on their dust collectors that they will burn up if run without at least 10' of flex hose attached. All other major small shop dust collector vendors instead use a combination of small impellers and tiny ports to ensure that their motors do not burn up if a hose gets knocked loose and their blower runs with maximum airflow.

All of the major brand name dust collector and cyclone vendors remain caught in a nasty game of their own making. To appear better than their competitors each badly exaggerates their advertized airflow, filtering and separation. Plus these vendors fail to spend the tiny amounts needed to ensure the workability of their dust collection products. Sadly, the magazine and independent testing I oversaw badly upset many small shop vendors.

We found only the Jet and Powermatic brands actually advertised airflows that we could get during our testing. All others advertised airflows that were far larger than we could get during testing. A few of the lesser quality imports exaggerated their airflows by as much as 100%.

We found all small shop vendors provide misleading airflow advertising. Almost all small shop vendors advertise maximum airflow which moves enough air for good fine dust collection. Maximum airflow only happens when we have no ducting, no filter or a brand new clean very open filter, and a special test pipe. This means that the advertised maximum airflows are just over double what we get in real use when our systems have to overcome the normal resistance from our hoods, ducting, separators, and filters.

The few firms that share airflow curves falsify their system performance through testing tricks which they convinced magazine editors to continue. Most of the magazine tests measure airflow with no ducting, no filter or a brand new clean very open filter, and a special test pipe and over sized ducting much larger than we would use. These changes minimize resistance so the vendors can advertise higher airflow numbers. I reviewed one magazine test and helped conduct another. It sickened me to find that the winning dust collector vendor used an over sized impeller that will make their dust collector burn up if a hose gets knocked loose. With a standard test pipe this winning dust collector overheated and burned up its motor in about twelve minutes of operation. No collectors burned up during that test because it normally only takes about three minutes to do the air volume tests on a dust collector. Likewise, the top rated cyclone vendor demanded that we test their two, three and five hp cyclones with a significantly over sized test pipes. We found all of their motors rapidly overheated from pulling far more than their rated amps and three of their supplied cyclones burned up because these tests take longer to run. When we stopped our testing because the motors reached their maximum rated amperage, all previously top rated dust collector and cyclone vendors except Jet and Powermatic (both part of WMH Tools) lost their top ranking status. In short, running the top rated dust collectors and cyclones at their advertised airflows causes those motors to burn up within minutes.

In spite of the exaggerations, citing maximum airflows and testing tricks all major brand name small shop dust collectors and cyclones sized over 1.5 hp provided the 350 cubic feet per minute (CFM) needed for good chip collection but no dust collector under 3 hp or cyclone under 3.5 hp provided the 1000 CFM airflow that our vendors who guarantee air quality established that we need for good fine dust collection.

Likewise, our small shop vendors consistently advertise improper filtering levels. The American Society of Heating Refrigeration and Air-conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) set the U.S. standards for indoor filters. In use filters build particles in the filter material that do not come out with normal automated cleaning. This is called seasoning. These particles build until a filter gets saturated and will take in no more particles. Manufactures call this a fully seasoned filter. A fully seasoned filter provides about twenty times better fine filtering than a clean new filter. Because it can take months to years for a filter to fully season, to amply protect our health ASHRAE requires that all filters for indoor use get rated when clean and new. Filter material makers share this clean new filtering level so engineers can comply with the ASHRAE standard for indoor air quality. Filter makers also provide the airflow and filtering levels for fully seasoned filters so air engineers can properly size outdoor filters.

Our small shop vendors claim that shops and garages represent outdoor rather than indoor use so advertise outdoor filtering levels, yet deliver equipment that can only be used in covered indoor areas. This combination makes for dangerously high indoor counts of the unhealthiest invisible particles freely passed by the more open filters even in clean looking shops.

Almost all small shop vendors sell much smaller filters than filter makers recommend which depends upon airflow and dust loading. This results in our filters constantly needing cleaning which kills our needed airflow and over cleaning quickly ruins fine filters. The typical small shop dust collector or cyclone vendor generally provides about one square foot of filter material for every ten cubic feet per minute (CFM) of airflow. This is the normal for a 30-micron filter that lets the airborne dust blow away outdoors. Sadly, most vendors now sell 10 and 20-micron filters that they claim as either 0.5 or 1-micron filters and size them the same. The actual sizing according to the top filter makers should be at least one square foot of 0.5 or 1-micron fine filter material for every two CFM of airflow. This means a typical 1.5 hp dust collector with a maximum airflow of 1100 CFM and real airflow of about 550 CFM needs at least 275 square feet of fine filter area if we use a real fine filter. Rather than provide this much expensive fine filter material, most small shop vendors instead provide roughly thirty square feet of far more open filter material. The more open filters appear to work just as well as they filter off the visible dust but they freely pass the invisible dust. This makes for terrible air quality but avoids the upset of customers having to constantly clean and replace fine filters.

During the one to three years it takes a small shop filter to fully season the filter freely passes the fine unhealthiest dust leaving our lungs to do the fine filtering. Although some vendors claim much faster seasoning, the truth is seasoned filters provide little health protection. Every time a seasoned filter gets hit with a blast of air from starting our blowers it sprays dangerously high amounts of fine dust into our shop air. Likewise, after every thorough cleaning these too open filters freely pass the fine unhealthiest invisible dust.

Worse, most filters contain large amounts of polymer materials that build up large amounts of static as we run air through the filters. This static charge causes lots of the fine airborne dust to build and collect on the filter exterior surface then get blown all over our shops when we turn on our dust collectors or cyclones.

In summary we did not find one single small shop dust collector or cyclone with advertised fine filter that did not freely pass through a majority of the finest invisible unhealthiest dust.

We also tested the separation ability of the various dust collectors and cyclones. As a baseline we first tested the two most popular trashcan separator lids. These trashcan separator lids work well and separate off almost all but the airborne dust. This means they captured about 85% of the dust created by weight and sent that remaining 15% airborne dust into the filters saving lots of time and trouble emptying dust bags and collection bins. When we stepped up the airflow from the 350 CFM needed for good chip collection to the 1000 CFM needed for good fine dust collection the trashcan separator lids became useless. The additional airflow scoured the cans clean of all but larger blocks and chunks.

At 350 CFM all but one small shop cyclone separated almost identically well as the trashcan separator lids. That one cyclone was so dismal that it put close to one third of the material it collected right into its filters. I had that firm identified on these pages and was quickly hit with a threat of a law suit demanding I remove that information. They did not care about how well their product works, only that nobody know how bad it works. They made no effort to improve this product and it continues to be sold exactly as was still being advertised as one of the best and most efficient. The magazine tests also found this one unit dismal and gave it their lowest possible rating without outright saying it was dismal. In defense of the magazines they do get considerable revenue from this vendor.

All other small shop cyclones except for my design separated little better than the trashcan separator lids. The only real advantage of these cyclones is at higher airflows than needed for "chip collection" all these cyclones continued to provide the same separation meaning close to 100% of the airborne dust went right into the filters. Independent medical school testing on my cyclone design found the same results as our testing. Instead of passing close to 100% of the airborne dust right through my cyclone design separates much better. It separates off over 82% of the airborne dust that other cyclones pass right through, plus it provides 99.9% separation of the unhealthiest invisible dust down to 4.7-microns. At this level of separation typical fine filters can go months instead of minutes between cleanings and these fine filters we need to amply protect our health will last years instead of the typical three months.

Unlike air from a compressor or vacuum cleaner, at typical dust collection pressures air is little more compressible than water, so just about any tiny opening, small hose, small duct, rough duct, poorly made fitting, or bad ducting design will seriously harm the airflow we need for good fine dust collection. We found every small shop vendor who offered a ducting design service used professional shop ducting designs that presume no blast gates and full time collection from all machines at the same time. Because air at typical dust collection pressures will not compress, this requires that each main and branch be sized large enough to carry all air coming from downstream. This creates very impressive graduated ducting designs which work terribly in small shops that only use one machine at a time. The oversized mains end up with too little airspeed to keep from building up piles and plugging.

The fine invisible fugitive dust we miss collecting just keeps building in shops that vent inside. Almost any airflow is enough to launch this dust airborne and keep it airborne as long as we are working.

For guys that have an insulated , heated, somewhat air tight shop, i can see going the extra mile using an air filtration system. But getting enough CFM's to do it properly means getting a huge blower.  Most guys are happy to just get the chip collection and the airborne particles you can see.

That was a seriously long drawn out write up to sell a system he had designed. But... there are very good reasons to go with a larger blower and a 6" trunk line to remove most of the air borne particles.

I have more like an open air shop with no insulation. and use a large fan with a 10' blower that blows right over my work bench. i often work with the doors open and that fan blowing in warmer weather. but winter time i rely on my dust collector to remove most of the airborne particles and blow it outside.... Would it pass a DEQ or OSHA standards test... i doubt it...

I've got over 50 years of wood working under my belt and it hasnt killed me yet.   Kirk

What would you recommend equipment placement closest to collector. Like I said straight line to collector. Guessing Drum sander first then edge sander then spindle sander and bandsaw furthest away?

In my shop , the order of worst dust is table saw, edge sander, widebelt, then bandsaw.

I don't have the plexi blade cover on tablesaw and that might help, but I can't see anything with it on...

I wish I had room in my shop for a table saw. Eventually i hope to get a long edge sander. It seems like my drum puts out a lot of really fine stuff which was why I was going to put it first.

Going to run the straight line today and figure out where I want the y's

Quote from: Watsonjay on May 10, 2025, 01:33:56 PM
Going to run the straight line today and figure out where I want the y's

What size blower are you using, and are you running a cyclone separator? 

I run all 3 sanders closest to the collector. I've got 2 lines capped off i don't use going to an older planer i got rid of, and i do not use my band saw enough to keep a  line hooked up to it. But the drop is there. I can hook the big bandsaw up when needed for a big project, but i rip all my lams on the table saw... I've got a line run over to my bench router and table saw that i rarely use too.

i use mine mostly for sanders and all the fine dust they create. im pretty casual about being a dusty old bowyer...    

Its a 1.5hp wen system. It will be about a 25' straight run with y's off it to machines. Its a trashcan cyclone

that should work well for you.   

I'm being nurse maid for the wife who is very slowly coming back from a stroke.  Been a while since I've started any large projects but have finished up a set of arrows for my granddaughter.

I had a friend cut my flair templates out of 1/2" baltic birch on his cnc then i sealed them, i have lots of Baltic plywood so thats what i used for now i will cut an extra set so i have a spare.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/VZ75JtR7pCHDkRxi7