Total Cut on Broadhead/ Question

PastorSteveHill · May 14, 2016, 11:14:00 PM

Am I an idiot for thinking a broad head with a total cut of 1 15/16 (Vipertrick)

is more cutting surface than a 2 blade 1 9/16 (Simmons)

What am I missing???

Charlie Lamb · May 15, 2016, 09:25:00 AM

I'm not sure what the total cutting surface has to do with anything. I think about the width which affects the size of the hole and I think about the length. The ratio of the two influences penetration.
How much blade is in between has little impact on anything.

Orion · May 15, 2016, 11:21:00 AM

Most of those 4-blade heads make a pretty small hole, about 1 1/16 inches. The Simmons, makes a much larger hole, and may take out arteries, etc, that the smaller blades miss.

As 4-blade heads go, the Viper is actually on the small side in terms of total "cutting surface." Lots of other 4-blade heads out there that will have a larger cutting surface.

Regardless, I agree with Charlie.

Shadowhnter · May 15, 2016, 01:08:00 PM

This is my opinion, right or wrong....but so far its held true for me. Whether a 1 1/16" hole or 3" hole is cut through the lungs, the animal will go the same distance. We are not trying to kill by blood loss, but ultimately our goal instead is to shut the oxygen off to the brain and body by removing lung function, and to get the air pushing in and out of the arrow hole instead of staying in the lungs to refresh brain and body muscle. Anyone witnessing this up close and personal to a double lung hit animal until it expires, knows what that sounds and looks like. Its the quickest death and shortest track jobs. Even heart shot animals tend to go much farther, because body movement alone circulates enough blood to keep them on their feet longer. I realize shots dont always go as planned, but splitting hairs between 1/4" width differences doesn't get different results very often . Maybe in the very rare case, but in all practicality...not much difference. Broadhead design, and sharpness to insure deep penetration is much more of an influence, but above all, place the arrow through both lungs (accuracy) to make quick deaths and short recovery.

monterey · May 15, 2016, 02:09:00 PM

Jason, I find myself in agreement with you. What you describe is a sudden and complete loss of blood pressure.

Quite a few years ago I read a study done on a WMA in controlled hunting conditions. IOW, every hunter was interviewed. Distance traveled after the hit was compared to the nature of the hit. The longest runs were by heart hits.

Michael Arnette · May 15, 2016, 02:16:00 PM

I'm with you guys on this one, however I would say that the size and breadth of the hole does make a difference in the available blood for tracking. For Whitetail size animals I'd recommend shooting a wider head as long as it is tunable and accurate purely for the blood trailing. Lately broadhead accuracy has been a problem for me so I've gone to a basic single bevel with good success.

bucknut · May 15, 2016, 10:09:00 PM

Steve, I'm with you on this. I have shot several animals with slick tricks and had some of the most gruesome bloodtrails I've ever seen. Blood 10 feet up on trees! Check out the testing on draining the milk jugs when shot. Its pretty amazing. I shoot 55# with 10 gpp. Most all of my shots are under 20 yards on whitetail or smaller, so I am not so sure I wouldn't be just as well off with a compact 4 blade when shooting thru ribs compared to a super wide 2 blade like a tree shark. I know it goes against everything that has been preached here and on other trad sites, but most of us aren't hunting elephant or cape buffalo. Just food for thought.

indianalongbowshooter · May 15, 2016, 10:29:00 PM

If you shoot a deer with a Tree Shark you will change your mind.. they leave a hole you can stick 3-4 fingers in and a blood trail that usually looks like it was poured from a bucket.. they die very quick or at least all the ones I've shot with them have. But on the other hand I've shot a bunch of deer with the 4 blade stingers and have had deer down in 10 yds. due to the fact that they acted like they were stung by a bee instead of hit by a big head, they just stood there and toppled over dead.. so basically as said if hit thru both lungs they are dead no matter what.

May 16, 2016, 07:20:00 AM

Here is my opinion, and it mirrors what Charlie said above. The total cutting area number on any broadhead package is just a way for them to put a bigger number on there so people think it cuts a bigger hole! The width is the only number that matters!

Bisch

D.Sheppard · May 16, 2016, 07:46:00 AM

If you want total cutting surface ...... one of those broadheads that never made it.

Zradix · May 16, 2016, 12:37:00 PM

Well..
Length to width ratio ..ie cutting surface..or mechanical advantage is something to think about.
It's easier to push a long and lean 2 blade 1 1/8" cut head thru a piece of meat than it is a 1 1/8" wide utility knife razor blade held perpendicular to the meat. This is taking it to extremes but helps make the point.

Most heads are designed just fine though.

One thing I consider important though is the total cut.
ie..how much actual cutting is being done.

A 2 blade 1.5" head has 1.5" of cut...pretty simple.

Now lets look at a 1 1/8" dia 3 blade.
Each blade is one half of 1 1/8" high ( 1 1/8"=1.125") (1.125" ÷ 2= .5625")

so... (3x .5625"= 1.6875") So a 1 1/8" cut dia 3 blade actually has 1.6875" of cut going on.

You can roll the dice of whether the wide 2 blade happens to cut a more vital area because of the width or the 3 blade cutting a more vital area because it actually does more cutting.

Either one will kill if the head goes thru the heart and lungs though...lol

Your choice.

monterey · May 16, 2016, 12:56:00 PM

My first concern is penetration. The wider The cut the better, as long as the overall combo is able to get both lungs. I like atrue 3:1 about 1" wide. Mainly because my bows are on the light side.

Charlie Lamb · May 17, 2016, 09:37:00 AM

It makes no difference how any blades a broadhead has as pertains to killing an animal... 2,3,4, whatever will all take down a critter fast when put in the right place.

Where the multiblade shines is opening a hole to allow escape of fluids and to more effectively violate the closed system that is the chest cavity and to promote both by making it difficult for skin and muscle and membrane to completely overlap the hole into the chest cavity.

Zradix · May 17, 2016, 09:53:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
It makes no difference how any blades a broadhead has as pertains to killing an animal... 2,3,4, whatever will all take down a critter fast when put in the right place.

Where the multiblade shines is opening a hole to allow escape of fluids and to more effectively violate the closed system that is the chest cavity and to promote both by making it difficult for skin and muscle and membrane to completely overlap the hole into the chest cavity.

...x2 What Mr. Lamb said.

amicus · May 17, 2016, 10:27:00 AM

No broadhead guarantees a "good" blood trail.

monterey · May 17, 2016, 01:09:00 PM

Agree, amicus. I've seen several double lung complete pass through kills that bled out completely and retained all the blood in the chest cavity.

bucknut · May 17, 2016, 02:39:00 PM

Charlie, that is the exact point I was trying to make. Nothing worse than losing a blood trail. I too have found deer after running 100 yards or more with little or no blood loss. Especially on good food years where fat is extra heavy. Just my .02. John.

May 17, 2016, 03:09:00 PM

Arteries are nearly a muscular tissue make up, fairly tough. I wonder what angle of cutting action is most effective and which edge. I have shot a number of deer with both size Deadheads, honed sharp enough to easily shave and file sharpene. The widest part of those is nearly a 4 to 1 cutting angle. I have had my most consistent blood trails with single bevel Hills with very keen serrated edges, the serration comes on the bevel side towards the flat side and forward. At an angle these can cut a very large hole. While I have seen Deadheads divert on angled hits, I have never seen a file sharpened Hill or a Grizzly divert on the shot angle. On the other hand, I have found that the old Herters four blade to be a very effective head as well. I gave a friend some modified Ribtecs, concaved and single beveled, he had a lot of success this year with them, he described the "unspeakable horror and carnage, I have never seen so much blood." I take that to mean that the edge he was getting was more effective than the edge he was getting with other heads.

Tajue17 · May 21, 2016, 08:07:00 AM

I used to be concerned with all the numbers related to broadheads and big blood trails and quick deaths and how far they will go,, its all fun reading now but the bottom line is you have way more to worry about than what broadhead you shoot... accuracy and with me personally it means hit the lungs not the heart!

broadheads I do have my favorites and they include a narrow grizzly up to the wide tree shark,, both as effective as the other and my mood determines which will lead the arrow that day.

Terry Green · May 21, 2016, 07:56:00 PM

No bowhunter guarantees a good blood trail specially poor shooting bow Hunters...... the majority of hits that are not placed in the vitals are to the rear... good bow shot or not good bow shot that is the fact cause animals step forward much more than backwards .....so the more damage you can do through the guts the better....releases more toxins and the animal lays down faster..... passing through the guts is easy.... passing through the scapula ....now THAT'S no guarantee..... I don't care what head you're pushing are willing to sell or hype

So....place YOUR bet on the MOST HIGHLY probable worst case scenario.....not the least likely

smaller heads,have their place...big game or lighter bows....you have to decide what head fit your set up and the game you are pursuing