QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
Pavan, you are just another example of the generosity of folks on this site.  Your kindness will be long remembered. You did the right thing.    

x3

just my .02 worth of observations and 'little things' that make a Hillstyle longbow shoot better and less generic feeling...something to think about  

since the early 90s and the popularity of clear glass, mixing wood materials in the limb has been popular.  However, imho you are mixing materials of differing densities and flex ratios, thereby minimizing the best qualities of each wood material, in other words, "dumbing down the limb" for the sake of cosmetics.  This results in a 'generic' shooting/feeling bow. I.E. a bow of bamboo/yew doesn't feel much different than one of bamboo/juniper or bamboo/osage or bamboo/elm...etc. This requires more lams/glue lines which adds limb weight.    However, if you compare in similar specs. a bow of all yew or all bamboo or all red elm to a mixed lam bow, you can definately feel the difference.  Limb overlays or wide tips add weight to the area of the limb which should be lightest (like the end of a fishing rod) thereby further making the bow shoot as generic as the others. Long risers creating shorter working limbs help add to the 'generic' shooting qualities of the bow, even sometimes making it feel like a R/D bow....start adding up all these things and pretty soon most Hillstyle longbows all feel pretty much the same, even when purchased from different bowyers.

Now if you take a bowyer that makes a Hillstyle longbow from all one limb material, (bamboo or yew is preferred but Red Elm makes a wonderful limb also) uses a short riser for longer working limbs, makes small, light, skinny limb tips, and uses fewer lams, you are getting the best representation of a bow that Hill designed, and the bow will feel and shoot differently than the other ones. Hill and his bowmaking disciples were very adamant about keeping to certain standards in the bow design...I believe he had found the qualities that made the bow shoot the best.  Even one of his early bowyers made the comment that the best shooting Hillstyle longbow would be made (if it were possible) of one lam of bamboo like a stave...keeping the glue joints as few as possible.  where do you hear that today? nowhere.  Everyone wants to make the bow as pretty as possible, thereby making the bow a good shooter, but perhaps not a great shooter.

I get the impression that most people are fine with good, generic shooters, like they are with a good assembly line vehicle. Most vehicles are made for the masses.  But if you could get a custom Porsche/Ferrari/etc. for the same price as a chromed out Cadillac, which would you pick?

There is a reason why the old Schulz bows, old Pete George bows, old Ron Maulding bows, old Armbruster bows, etc. are so popular even today.  They were built differently than the Hillstyle longbows of today.  Where has the last 20 years taken us?  Prettier bows for sure, but did we lose the shooting characteristics of the old longbows for the sake of cosmetics and assembly line feel?

I guess I'm on my soapbox because of something that happened on one of my personal bows recently that reinforced to me how the 'little things' about a bow add up when making a great Hillstyle longbow....  I made a white glass longbow last year to the same specs as two of my favorite bows and shot it for a whole year to get used to it.  It didn't shoot quite the same, felt a little stiffer when pulling and shot higher and jumpier than my other bows.  Same length, same riser length, same poundage, same limbs, everything the same EXCEPT that the limb tips were 1/8" wider than I usually make.  I never felt quite as comfortable with that bow as my other favorites.  Last night I decided to narrow and lighten the tips to my favorite 7/16" width and taper the limbs accordingly.  Bingo.  I shot in the dark at an illuminated target up to 30 yards.  I couldn't see the arc of the arrow flight at all.  All I could see was the arrow hitting where I looked.  This bow now shoots the same as my other favorites...same point of impact, same soft feel at draw, same soft feel at release.  I don't shoot a myriad of bowstyles, so my instinctive eye is always the same and this bow now put the arrow exactly where my other bows do.  Do little things make the bow shoot great?  I believe so. I believe it's worth the effort to add up all the little things when dealing with Hillstyle longbows.  I like my stable of Porsches...  

I'm reading a lot of the stuff you are saying and it seems that bows really should be made for specific people.

I have a Schulz trophy hunter that shoots pretty darn well for me but it's a bit heavy and needs to be refinished pretty badly. What are the chances that some customization for my longer draw length can be had in that bow with a refinish and weight reduction? I wouldn't mind someone tearing into the bow a bit to see what can be done, even though it shoots pretty well.

Good job explaining that Nate. It's exactly how I feel too.

I am not so certain that mixing laminations is the whole story on generic shooting bows. Louis mixed laminations all the time, hard wood lams at that. Some of the mixed ones were the best shooters he had, although they all shot bout the same. My half breed from a blank has five lams, it shoots as well as any of my Schulz, Pete George, or Louis Armbruster bows, in some ways better and it is just as fast.

Nate,
I have noticed that you are a very passionate Hill Style Bower. Especially in keeping with "true" Hill style. Now there are bows like the Belcher Union Jack, And Bama Hunter. That are straight limbed or string follow AFB or American Semi-longbows but not "Hill Style". Yours on the other hand and Rons Shrew Hill are to be Made to exacting measurements.  Without giving away proprietary info, what is a true Hill limb width and tip with you stated you like7/16". Were Mr. Hills risers 12"?  I'm speaking of his laminate bows, not self bows.  Thank you for whatever info may be given.
Again, I am interested in a bow that today would pass Mr. Hills inspection on what he designed.

I have a friend on here, Eric(typical2), who borrowed a Wesley Special from me last summer, and shot his first traditional deer with that bow because, let's face it, who can resist a longbow?  It doesn't hurt that he starts with a great shooter, and I didn't need a 70" bow, he does.

He's an all or nothing guy, and starts building bows on a straight bow form this past winter. He built me one, it's like number 3 or 4, and he's built 8 now.  I thought I would showcase it in the Hill thread, it shoots with the best bows I own for overall feel and character. He doesn't sell them.

66" and 45#@28"
Slightly string follow.
Salted sycamore veneers over bamboo 3 lam core.
I typically don't like SF, but I'm starting to think that maybe some just have more SF than I like... Hmmm

Enjoy, thanks Eric!

 
 
 
 

Very Nice!!!

Brian , my Belcher and my Dave Miller are very similiar except for the inclusion of limb tips on my Belcher and it being only maybe an inch longer in the riser  ... I think the Bama Bows have a slightler larger and longer riser ...
I still classify them as Hill style bows though ... but I am a pretty relaxed fella


Going by the apparent "true" Hillstyle bow making methods it would seem that there are perhaps only a very few makers doing so, most of whom have very long wait times ...
imagine this thread if everyone wanted one of these bows for fear of lacking any  " authenticity "... this thread would have been dead at page 2 .....

I am quite happy with my run of the mill generic straight assembly line longbows .. lol ...
 

That's "spalted" sycamore Matt  

iPad autocorrect at work!    

Mmmm hmmm. Sure. I bet you just had to lick those limbs and see if they really were salty, didn't you?    

I agree Ben. I too am very happy with my factory line union Jack. But since Nate has such a passion for true Hill replicas in the Hill specs I'd like to hear what makes a true Hill. One that Mr.  Hill would pick up and go" ah ha, this is it"

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
Brian , my Belcher and my Dave Miller are very similiar except for the inclusion of limb tips on my Belcher and it being only maybe an inch longer in the riser  ... I think the Bama Bows have a slightler larger and longer riser ...
I still classify them as Hill style bows though ... but I am a pretty relaxed fella


Going by the apparent "true" Hillstyle bow making methods it would seem that there are perhaps only a very few makers doing so, most of whom have very long wait times ...
imagine this thread if everyone wanted one of these bows for fear of lacking any  " authenticity "... this thread would have been dead at page 2 .....

I am quite happy with my run of the mill generic straight assembly line longbows .. lol ...
   

my previous post may have come across badly ... but then again ?

From my narrow view from down here in Oz I should state that most of the Hill bows I have seen in print , in Bob Burtons book etc  from the Hill era are quite heavily reflexed with tear drop , wedge like handles ...
Quite unlike my Schulz inspired Miller Ol' Tom ... So maybe there is scope for a bit leeway ?

No doubt there are many many fine bowyers whom all have a version , dare I say 'variation' on the "Hill" Bow as they see it and build it .
Its all good and the more "Hill" style bowyers , Straight limb longbow archers and enthusiasts there are ...


archery will be a better place for it ......

This thread is a good example ...

And i can't wait to see a lefty Sunset Hill here in Oz ........

Pavan..I agree about Louie's bows being mixed woods...but they were woods of similar densities and flex.  Not the same as mixing bamboo and osage..

One of my idiosyncrasies is my passion for Hillstyle longbows.  That term has been used to describe straight limb longbows for some time now and that is where the waters get muddy.  If there is no one out there holding to true Hillstyle design then it will eventually be lost forever for the sake of close copies.  Pity.

Not saying mine or Millers are the only ones out there trying to keep the faith....there are really good shooting straight limb longbows out there but they don't follow the design that Hill  perfected and taught his pupils.  A casual glance will show that.

I did not post to make anyone feel that their Hillstyle bows are inferior.  Far from it...I for one am glad to see the infectious Hill bug causing straight limb longbows to be popular again and for discussions of this sort to be taking place.  It is all good.  Educated conversation like this has created the market and shooting enjoyment of bows made with carmelized bamboo, string follow, short risers, true draw lengths etc over the past few years.

As far as stringfollow goes I like just a very small amount. My second favorite limb profile is straight. Those two profiles seem more stable and smooth to me IMO. Whats your take on this Nate?

As Matt/Overspined mentioned, i have it bad!  I went from shooting and loving my wheelie bow to buying 2 HHA bows, making my own quivers, building my own woodies, making flemish strings, and making 8 longbows.  Quite the evolution.

   

    http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w364/typical2/2012-07-24_09-57-53_385.jpg  

    http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w364/typical2/2012-07-24_10-01-12_403.jpg  

  http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w364/typical2/2012-07-24_10-01-58_188.jpg?t=1349984011
 

   


This next year i'm thinking of bhilding some reflexed reverse handle bows like the NM Whisper.  And some reflex standard grip bows.  Maybe i'll start footing arrows.

I need help.....

Eric

Eric you are a sick man. Who can get by with only ten longbows?

Nice looking bow!

Eric....it's too late, you're doomed.  Next thing you know, you'll be spending more time in the shop than in the house...    I guess we'll be seeing you at the ASLAA meetings (American SemiLongbowAholics Anonymous)  Hi, my name is Eric, and it started with one HH bow....


concerning earlier posts....one thing to remember, Hill's bows also transformed over the years as he found ways to make them better.  Schulz maintains that he never changed what he was taught by Hill as to limb tapers and tiller, yet I've shot or held multiple Schulz bows that have different limb bends and tiller....but all true Hillstyle longbows feature narrow, deep cored limbs, short handle sections, narrow light tips, bamboo limbs, reflex or string follow, narrow risers, tillering and timing that works the entire limb.  Many of todays Hillstyle bows deviate from those parameters, the most prevalent being flatter wider limbs and heavy tips and long handles.

another question for those who know....I know David Miller was taught wood/bamboo bowbuilding from Schulz, but I heard that he wasn't taught the glass bows from Schulz, that he built the Old Tom series by copying Schulz's Old Tom...does anyone know about this?  If so, he sure copied Schulz' bow to a T.