I am out here tuning my AD stingers (orange) @ 30" with 300 gr on front (bare shaft). The arrow is hitting close to where I want but is showing a bit stiff. However this doesn't make sense to me because the shaft is flying nock left the whole way which I thought is an indication of soft spine. And I remember reading something on the bowhunting alaska website (cant find it now) that too light of a spine can show stiff on an EFOC arrow or something like that.

My gut says I'm too stiff as I believe any bareshaft correctly tuned should fly straight like a normal fletched shaft.

Any advice for me?

RH or LH, what draw weight and draw length are you shooting, what spine is 'orange'?

What happens when you go up or down in point weight? Have you shot with a feathered arrow to confirm nock height?  Sometimes a small change in nock or brace height will change your impact and flight just enough.

RH 55@28 Orange is .250. Shot feathered arrows, nock height seems good.

I can get these guys to hit on target left to right with point/length changes.

What is really throwing me off is the shaft kicking left or right (depending on point/length setup) Not always a lot but just enough to notice. Do you guys get your bare shafts to honestly fly perfect? I am wondering if I am just seeing the paradox. Is impact point all that matters?

I have never noticed a stiff arrow kick the nock out (or even slowly have the nock move sideways. I have seen this on an arrow that is too light though. What am I missing?

Here is where my questions start:

On the Tuffhead website the tuning article says in regards to tuning, that the impact point (left to right) is now at a good point. Then it states 'However, now that I am back far enough to see some of the flight of the shafts, I am starting to pick up a tail-kick during the flight. For some of you, this type of tail kick may very well look like a big sweeping motion, as thought the shaft is shooting around a curve   (This is what my shafts look like)  . This is nothing more than your eyes playing tricks on you. In fact, the point is going straight and the tail of the shaft is kicking left. This is a real mind blower if your not expecting it.'   (Oh, yeah tell me about it!?)  

Then it goes on to say; 'I will make another 1/8" cut and shoot several more shots before moving further back. What I am looking for at this oint is as close to the same results as I was getting at ten yards- straight flight and straight impact.'

I know many dont pay attention to impact angle (I havent been) but I would imaging you all pay attention to the shaft flight?

So when the tail kicks, it looks like he is increasing spine, yet I am even having it happen when I am shooting to the left (indicating too stiff).

Hopefully this helps you to understand what's going on and where my thinking is.

I just finished up where you are beginning. I bare shafts tested. I started with the lightest tip I had.  A 30 aluminum BH adapter.  The point went to the left of the target, nock end to the right.  I kept adding weight until the shafts were hitting straight, to alittle right of the target. Nock left.  These shafts are supposed to be 325 deflection, whatever that means.  #R has them spined 35 to 55 It took 300gr on a HH lite shaft.  I am shooting a 60# @ 28.3/4,  I draw to 29 1/2 the shaft is 30"  I was able to shoot, feathers, BH and even a snuffer with the bare shaft at 12 yards.  All other bareshafts were at 22 yards.  I hope this helps.

I'd say put your fletching on, get them hitting your spot dead on, & quit pulling your hair out over bare shaft tuning bro.... It's just not worth the heart ache to me...

Thanks guys. I am wondering if you can ever even get the tail wag out of these EFOC arrows. Depending on length I am 27-31% right now. They are so light on the back end that it seems after that initial paradox around the riser they just dont come back. I have no idea really I'm just speculating. This is acting differently than when I have done this with 'normal' arrows in the past.

I dont know if it is a big deal or not, I just figured I'd ask. That article was the only time I have heard the tail kick mentioned.

On some bows, the longer the shaft overhang is, the harder it can be to find the sweet spot. A .250 does sound a little stiff for a 55# bow, unless you have a long draw length with plenty of weight up front.

Have you tried raising or lowering your brace height, or changing the thickness of your side plate material?

Point of impact is more critical than bare shaft flight, and is usually sufficient to achieve good broadhead flight. That being said, I personally strive for a perfectly flying bareshaft. And it should be obtainable with any bow, given you properly match the dynamic spine with your draw length/weight.

Try stepping farther back to get a better idea of where the shaft is trying to go. You could also shoot through paper to see what that will show you.

Thanks, I'll try those things. .250 seems a lot stiff to me but I think is the range I need. It seems the spine does not seem to correlate well with AD shafts compared to parallels. I have trad lites (same spine as the yellows i.e. one step down from the orange) and they are cut to the min length and still can only handle about 175 up front (including insert) before they get weak. that isn't even 10 gpp.

The best setup I have found so far is a full length orange shaft with 300 up front. It hits just where I need it and has just a slow soft sweep of the nock to the left during flight.

I haven't messed with my brace height or shelf material because I have been too stiff. I have been shooting at my min brace height and my shelf material, though just replaced, is as thin as I can get.

I'm a fan of bare shafting but I've heard that you don't bare shaft AD's?No experience here,with them but you might ask specifically about that.You may want to PM Terry Green.I believe he uses them.

Higher FOC arrows actually come out of paradox much quicker than normal FOC.

Thanks Jim! Maybe that will explain this. It just seems all that I see is backwards from what I would expect. I expected to see less paradox for sure. Also I wouldn't be surprised if the less tail wag on the 32.5 full length shaft was simply due to the longer length vs the 30 inchers. I'll look into that!

What do you guys think about the GT Velocity shafts?

Just asking because I didn't buy that many of these AD's and will need to buy more anyway.

Do you guys think I would be better served with the GT Velocity? As best as I can tell I wouldn't get near the FOC with them though. With the AD's I can get 27-31% in the 560-580 gr range. That is measured on the table. The GT Velocities only yield 23-24% in that same weight. But that is via a calculator.

This is a pretty interesting thing to consider. I am after the most forgiving arrow I can make. But I am not sure which corner to find it in.

On one hand it sounds like the AD shafts dont bare shaft well for a lot of people. But offer better FOC. Not being able to bareshaft says to me they rely on the feathers more which is bad for forgiveness, yet they yield more FOC which is good for forgiveness.

The GT shafts seems to be the opposite. You should be able to perform Bare shaft planing just fine and get it dialed in just right (more forgiving), but ultimately yield less FOC (less forgiving).

Do you guys see what I am saying? Which do you see as the most profitable area to look into?

I am seriously considering just getting the GT's and keeping these for stumping arrows.

I shoot wood, so I'm only at 15% FOC, so take this with a grain of salt.

You should be able to get straight flight as if you are shooting fletched shafts. Unless you are shooting with a machine, or you are a world famous trick shooter than can robin hood 4 arrows in a row, I would tune to arrow flight and not point of impact. To me, there are just too many factors that could contribute to you shooting left or right of your target.

If it were me, I would either build the side plate out and see if that helps at all. If it does, than you know your shafts are too week. If nothing conclusive comes from building out the side plate, then sacrifice one arrow and start cutting it down. You should be able to get it to fly straight (to your eye) at 20 yards, in my opinion.(at least I can, but I've never played with UEFOC carbon arrows)

P.S. are you tuning with field points or broadheads? I would tune with field points first, then tune your broadheads so you have a baseline to work from.

Have used the black Gt,trad Gt, and ultralight Entrada Gt. You can get high 20s to30ish efoc with the Entrada Ul GT but you will be at 650 gr approx. The trads will get you mid 20s foc at approx same weight. The GTs are imho a great balance of toughness,5/16 diameter for standard available components, and price. Get the blems for the best value going so you don't have cardiac infarction WHEN you lose or break one. The skinny shafts and others are great but you will pay $ and may have to order components which is a PIA. Try the entradas and ask Big Jim if he has the blems.

I have found that an arrow hitting the shelf shows all types of erronious indications.  I would move the nock up 1/16 and see if indications change.

I'm going to say just the opposite of Wandering Archer. IMO, and I'm a firm believer in bare shaft tuning, unless you are a machine or have an olympic level release, you are never going to get perfect flight with a bare shaft. You WILL however get bare shafts to fly to your point of aim when you get the right spine/point wt. combo, regardless of what the tail end of the arrow is doing. At this point, fletch 'em up and you should be good.

Wandering archer: I have an easy thing to stick on real quick, so I'll give that a try.

Al: your comment is very interesting, as I just put on a new string and haven't messed with the nock point. It seemed like it was working fine, but I'll raise it up just to see. Building out the shelf 'shouldn't' help as I am stiff, but like  you said who knows at this point.

I'll feather them up and see what it looks like. I had no idea these things typically dont bare shaft tune. I am happy to find out I am not totally crazy...

I'll also tune my nocks. I noticed they are all pretty tight and I wonder if that would bleed off enough power to make them show stiff. I did a lot of testing with equivalent stuff I had before ordering these shafts. I am really really surprised they are showing stiff. I feel like it could be something little but stupid like the nocks and just a hair thicker (i.e non worn out) shelf material.

If your nocks are too tight, that will certainly interfere with your results. Also, if you increase your brace height, that will effectively weaken your dynamic spine. A change in string material and construction type will also change a bows dynamic spine requirement.

Do a google search for the Easton tuning guide. You should be able to download a pdf version.

I am familiar with the spine cause/effects. My arrows were showing stiff. This was all done at my min brace height so I was giving it as much juice as I had to soften them up.