Hi Ozy,
I sympathize with your frustration and have found that when I follow a set of steps, and eliminate the variables things go much smoother.  I would refer you to Elite's website on tuning.  I also start with the bowyer's recommended string (material and No. strands), string height, when setting the nocking point.  I pick one or two arrows and start with their recommended brace height, on the low side, set a nocking point and shoot fletched arrows into a bale or paper target in front of a bale. I gradually increase the string height, 10 twists will raise the height about 1/4". I then build the rest out, with electrical tape, cut in 1" lengths until I get a favorable results. I am trying to find the spot where the bow is quietest, and gives the best flight.

Once all that is done then I will try paper tuning with bare shafts and fletched arrows. I think, it is easy to want to skip the early steps and jump right to the bare shaft, or bare shaft with BH. Don't it will only get confusing.

Next, have someone stand behind you while you shoot some fletched arrows, that can see what the arrow is doing when it leaves the bow. If you are looking, just focus on the spot and keep both eyes open and see if you can pick it  up white or light colored fletching.  

If it is possible start with 500 spine, to confirm or reject that arrow. Then the 400, before going to the 340, etc with 160 - 200 gr. points. The lighter points will show up as strong or weak, where a really heavy point might not.  Go slow, and make some notes as you go. Good luck.

If it where me, I would have started with full length 340's and 300's, with various tip weights and dropped the footing until I had a perfectly tuned shaft. My A&H is 48#@28 cut 3/16 past center and I shoot 340's out of it with 175 grain up front. They fly perfect!

But what do I know!

Ozy, you say you don't think it's a brace height problem because you've had the problem with two different bows.  It's possible your brace height was too low on both.  What is your brace height?

Ozy,I think you are jumping around changing too many things.It can get very confusing.I don't shoot bows as efficient as the Border but my draw weights are similar to yours at your draw and now that you have built out the side plate,centershot is similar.

With a 30",.340 GT,I need 400 grs up front.Cut to 28 5/16",I need 450 grs up front.

I know that .340 and .350 shafts are what I want for my setups and when I tune,I install a 100 gr insert,right off the bat and then tune only by changing point weight.I use a selection of points ranging from 100 to 350 grs,most are in 25 gr intervals.It takes about 15 minutes to get very close to perfect tune,because I am only changing point weight.

After that,I could change shaft length if I wanted to but I verify everything with point weight before changing anything else.

I think with your new sideplate and a 28" shaft,you will need more up front weight.If you have a longer .340 shaft,like 30-32" you could try that but only change one thing at a time.

orion- the brace on the border is 6 3/4". on the bob lee it was at 8".

jimB- more point weight isn't an option. it'll make all the heads i have obsolete and my total arrow weight will up over 12-13gr/#.

i'll try a full length 340.

here's a question- is a 28" 400 as stiff as a full length 340"?

i played around with my form a little and found i might be torquing the string. when i made a conscious effort not to flight was alot better. it was uncomfortable to twist my hand though so i can't the bow less instead for the same result. they still fishtail a little sometimes though and i want to confirm whether they are still a little weak but it's been really windy here for a last week and i haven't had a chance.

I haven't followed all of the replies and answers, but have you tried the shafts without the 2 1/2" footing?

I'm nowhere near your setups, but I did play around a bit with 3555s and 5575s and some footings. I found when I make the footing longer than 1" or so, it changes my arrow's dynamic spine a lot more than I expected toward the stiff side.

Interesting point Bladepeek. I've experienced the same and reduced footings to less than a half inch

QuoteOriginally posted by ozy clint:
here's a question- is a 28" 400 as stiff as a full length 340"?

I would say no. My best guesstimation would be a 29" to 29.5" .340 would be the same as a 28" .400, as long as everything remains the same, same arrow, same tip weight, same bow.

You need to get your shaft on the same center line as your riser. For example, if your shafts are 5/16 in diameter, your strike plate needs to be 5/32 past center, half of 5/16 is 5/32. This will put your shaft on the same center line as your riser. When these two come in line with each other, your bow is at it's peak performance and will shoot the stiffest shaft possible. Anything outside of this will take a weaker shaft to clear the riser.

There is a reason this is important. Because you will know what the stiffest shaft it will shoot, and you now have a bench mark, or a reference point to tune from. And it will also bring you closer in your relationship with your bow.

If all else fails, you will have to start over and keep it simple.

Just my opinion, i'm probably wrong!

Good luck.

so i tried again today. my 1st shot was with my normal 30" 400 spine bareshaft. it missed the whole 5'x3' bale! way to left with wild flight. then i realised i hadn't screwed a point on it. really stiff result. i thought, "i just made this shaft really stiff and it got way worse, lets try the other way".

so i put a 425gr point on it. (250gr point, 50gr wood screw adapter on a 125gr steel adapter) for 525gr upfront.

well the 1st bare shaft was the best i've seen a bareshaft fly. no fishtailing just a little nock high. 2nd shot, same!!!
tried it with a fletched BH. WOW! that's how arrows are supposed to fly. dart like straight to the spot. no dart every now and then, but everytime!

question is will a 500 spine do the same thing with my normal 350gr upfront. i hope so.

don't ask me why a 400 at 30" flys great with 525gr up front out of a 58# bow. i don't care as long as it does. now to try a 500 and get the total weight down to around 650gr.

That's great.It will be very interesting to see what the 500's do.Judging from the results you just got with the 400's and that much up front weight,it should be doable.

Use 3 Rivers dynamic spine calculator tool and it will help you see how close you are. It has shown itself to be very accurate.

Here is the link:
http://www.3riversarchery.com/spinecalculator.asp

Glad you worked it out.  Are you still using the 3" footing?

Oz,
After reading your last post, you said, the 400 spine with 525 gr tip/wt, fletched few like darts when fletched and you got good results with a bare shaft; so why are you asking about 500 spine with 350 grains? Maybe I am missing something here.        

i want to shoot 350gr upfront since this suits all my heads. either 100gr insert and 250gr points or 50gr insert and 300gr points. on a 500 spine this will give me about 650gr total mass. the 400 with the 525gr upfront, while it flys good weighs 850gr! 58#@28" drawn to 26".

the 2.5" footing is still there.

i just used that calculator. bow spine 77# arrow spine 22#. that's with the 400's with 525gr up front.
   

as long as they fly good i don't care.

I haven't used the 3R calculator but on Stu's,high FOC arrows don't compute.The calculator always shows the working setups to be too weak.

QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
I haven't used the 3R calculator but on Stu's,high FOC arrows don't compute.The calculator always shows the working setups to be too weak.

Same here.  When I started going to lighter shafts I began to see how arrows are supposed to fly.

The 3R calculator is simply an older version of Stu's...why not contact Border Archery and describe to them what you are experiencing...they can also explain why they cut their risers so far past centre

DDave