HH BUG GOT ME - Part Two!

TxAg · August 20, 2014, 08:27:00 PM

Well, I'm an official member now. I took delivery of a 66" Cheetah today. It's marked 55@29 and scaled 52@27 and 55@28 on my scale. Turns out my 29" r/d draw is more of a 27.5" hill style draw.

The bow pulls smooth and easy. I can see myself going up 5# or so in weight, though.

I'll get pics up in the next day or so. Bow has a verawood riser and nude colored moose wrap with (of course) the juniper lams.

I know it's sinful, but I shoot carbons. I tinkered a bit today...but I'm open to suggestions if anyone has an idea on spine, length, and point weight. (I haven't ruled woods out)

Green · August 20, 2014, 08:39:00 PM

Congrats Jeff. Put all other bows aside for a couple of days and shoot only your Cheetah. Life just won't be the same again.

TxAg · August 20, 2014, 08:46:00 PM

I need a new string, but the current one is serviceable. I have confidence a new string will curb the thump and noise a bit more. It's not bad at all, though, at the moment.

August 20, 2014, 09:04:00 PM

Is the string on the bow a b55 or something dyneema? A more modern string on some bows can make a big difference. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made as far as bow weight was to not listen to John Schulz, being young dumb and strong as a bull I went way up in bow weight. He thought a 55 yew would be a good enough weight for most things and 70 plenty for anything. A pass through is a pass through and a 54 Cheetah at 27.5" with a wood arrow that flies true is a deadly combination. I am super impressed with Surewoods, I do not like very much extra arrow length for my longbows and carbons quite often like extra length. I have some Alaskans that work with 200 grains up front without any extra length.

Blaino · August 20, 2014, 09:44:00 PM

TxAg- I agree with Pavan on bow weight. My Wesley was 65# at 30" I was stooting with more of a hill style at around 28" and 60 ish pounds. Then I got the bright idea to have my bow cut down to 68" and 67# at 28". That 7# was a big jump but I was working into it..... Then i injured my shoulder working out to be able to handle the weight. That was 3 months ago and my shoulder isn't bouncing back like I think it should.
Long story short, Unless you are going to hunt waterburffalo or something huge I'd stick with that smooth drawing 54# and give them Texas deer and pigs heck!

TxAg · August 20, 2014, 11:32:00 PM

Although fletched arrow flight is looking good so far (i will bareshaft soon) these seem like they "should" be a little stiff

GT Trad 55/75s cut to 29" with 200 gr tip and standard 18 gr insert and 12 gr nock with 3 5" feathers. I like to use 1" of aluminum footing as well but have never noticed that to affect arrow flight. Overall, right about 10 gpp

The string that came with appears to be a FF type material. It is 8 strand but has some thickness. Eventually, I'd like to ahoot an 8 strand SBD d-10. They work so well on all my bows.

Thoughts?

Rob DiStefano · August 21, 2014, 06:00:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by TxAg:
Although fletched arrow flight is looking good so far (i will bareshaft soon) these seem like they "should" be a little stiff

GT Trad 55/75s cut to 29" with 200 gr tip and standard 18 gr insert and 12 gr nock with 3 5" feathers. I like to use 1" of aluminum footing as well but have never noticed that to affect arrow flight. Overall, right about 10 gpp

The string that came with appears to be a FF type material. It is 8 strand but has some thickness. Eventually, I'd like to ahoot an 8 strand SBD d-10. They work so well on all my bows.

Thoughts?

if yer bow can handle modern hmpe string fibers ("dyneema", "vectran", "spectra", etc) then that's surely be the way to go for a bowstring and will be much better than any polyester ("dacron" = b50, b500, b55) bowstring in more ways than one.

the rest of the string's design is purely personal, so if at all possible, test out a variety of different hmpe string materials, strand counts, and flavors (flemish and endless). brace heights and nocking point heights are more critical than the strand count and type of hmpe fiber. enjoy!

TxAg · August 21, 2014, 06:39:00 AM

I agree Rob. Ay thoughts on that arrow set up? It seems like it should be stiff, but so far so good. Just gota keep tinkering

Green · August 21, 2014, 06:46:00 AM

I think you're a little stiff with those Jeff....if you've got some 3555's you might give them a try. Just don't go off what I say about carbons!

And yes, put a FF string on that bow....you'll quickly relieve your shooting of any handshock and most of the noise. Start your brace height out about 6 3/8" with the FF and no silencers....then go from there.

Rob DiStefano · August 21, 2014, 07:17:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by TxAg:
I agree Rob. Ay thoughts on that arrow set up? It seems like it should be stiff, but so far so good. Just gota keep tinkering

carbons are known for having a very high dynamic spine range, as opposed to their listed static spine range. when compared to woodies or even alums, carbon static spines are just too high - at least that's my evaluation after too much testing. no wonder they're typically listed in 20# ranges per static spine. as a result, i realized that going down at least one static spine range was the ticket.

so for carbons, i use cheap beman bowhunters, 500 spine, 29" long from depth of nock to the end of the insert, with 250 to 350 grains of point and adapter up front for a 510 to 590 grain arrow. feathers are either 5.25" shield helical 3-fletch or 4.25" banana offset 4-fletch. they've worked just fine for me.

ScouterMike · August 21, 2014, 08:25:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by TxAg:
I agree Rob. Ay thoughts on that arrow set up? It seems like it should be stiff, but so far so good. Just gota keep tinkering

2x what Rob said, with carbons go low on spine with an ASL. I would even suggest scrounging up a few 2016 aluminums which will fly perfect and give you a good baseline of what you can do with the bow.

I learned the hard way, selling a great Hill because I thought I could not shoot it well. I was shooting only carbon arrows. The new owner let me try it after it was setup with arrows it liked and I was sick. I set those carbons on the swap table with a free sign and walked away from them.

Also like Green said start at a low brace with a bare string and you will find a sweet spot with very little noise and vibration. Consider starting below 6in if your form allows it. I have two 66in Hills and they both tune out between 6 and 6 1/4 and get vibration above 6 1/2.

I actually prefer a Dacron string on an ASL but that is another subject.

Rob DiStefano · August 21, 2014, 08:34:00 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by ScouterMike:
... I actually prefer a Dacron string on an ASL but that is another subject.

try keeping the strand count the same with an hmpe string as you have with yer polyester/dacron string. the inherent functional benefits of hmpe are something worth having.

August 21, 2014, 12:16:00 PM

If the strand count is the same with hmpe material, does it need padding for a Hill with the wedged tips?

Rob DiStefano · August 21, 2014, 12:27:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
If the strand count is the same with hmpe material, does it need padding for a Hill with the wedged tips?

if the strand count is 10 or under for endless strings i add 2 strands, and for flemmish i'd add a minimum of 6 strands. all padded strands are always polyester/dacron.

jhk1 · August 21, 2014, 01:01:00 PM

Totally agree with the Robs (DeStefano and Green) on HMPE strings on ASLs (aka Hill-style longbows). I have a couple of Howard Hills, a JD Berry Northstar, a Big River, and a couple of Jerry Hills. Some had Dacron strings when I got them, some had HMPE. On every one of these bows, I greatly prefer a HMPE string. On every one of my ASLs, the HMPE string reduces handshock and is quieter (the HMPE has a higher-pitched tone, but overall it's quieter). On my Hill Big 5 (an older Craig Ekin bow), the bow went from being a great shooter with Dacron (very little handshock and quiet) to even better (virtually no handshock, even quieter). An on bows that have significantly more handshock with Dacron (e.g., the Jerry Hills), the HMPE makes a huge difference-- the handshock becomes a pleasant "thump" and they're quieter. Some people dismiss Jerry Hills, but I love shooting them with HMPE strings. My Jerry Hill Wildcat (I think I got it from Rob Green-- he had tip overlays and an HMPE string put on it) is now one of my favorite shooters.

For anyone thinking about getting rid of a Hill-style longbow because of issues with handshock and shootability-- if you're shooting the bow with a Dacron string, do yourself a big favor and try an HMPE string (should probably go with Dacron-padded loops) before you get rid of it. You may end up loving the bow.

ScouterMike · August 21, 2014, 03:46:00 PM

Wow, where is the love for ol b50? Just for those who are now considering trashing a perfectly good Dacron string...I think, with an ASL especially, brace height has more to do with noise and vibration than string material. Every ASL I have/or had tuned in just fine with a well fitted b50 and/or would tune in fine with well fitted hmpe string. I prefer b50 because the material seems to have better dampening characteristics than hmpe materials actually giving better shot feel - less vibration and noise (although not much) with no real practical downside. Yes the lighter materials are more durable and can give a few fps more arrow speed (at most with heavy arrows). Some say Dacron stretches too much but that seems more related to construction and sizing to bow than material. At least I have no problem with the b50 strings I make and that is only a few a year so I am no expert at it.

I will say this though, the last b50 string I purchased (for a bow I was selling) from a major supplier was way too long for the marked length and only available in one strand size, a little too heavy for the intended bow. It would not settle in (sizing issue) and weighed 40 grains (over 25%) more than the b50 string it was replacing. If this was my only experience with b50, I would not use it period.

Actually, now that I am thinking about, I do not know where I could order a proper b50 string for a bow less than 60lb (say 14 strand as I use my ASLs). I guess I would have to try to order it from custom string builder as few even list it as available, must not be very popular.

TxAg · August 21, 2014, 04:06:00 PM

^^^ Mike, are you using string silencers?

Rob DiStefano · August 21, 2014, 04:15:00 PM

no love at all for polyester/dacron - its day has come and is looooong gone as far as i'm concerned. i'll only use it for loop padding, if need be. hmpe is simply SO much mo' functionally better in every way, imho.

NBK · August 21, 2014, 04:57:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

QuoteOriginally posted by TxAg:
I agree Rob. Ay thoughts on that arrow set up? It seems like it should be stiff, but so far so good. Just gota keep tinkering
carbons are known for having a very high dynamic spine range, as opposed to their listed static spine range. when compared to woodies or even alums, carbon static spines are just too high - at least that's my evaluation after too much testing. no wonder they're typically listed in 20# ranges per static spine. as a result, i realized that going down at least one static spine range was the ticket.

so for carbons, i use cheap beman bowhunters, 500 spine, 29" long from depth of nock to the end of the insert, with 250 to 350 grains of point and adapter up front for a 510 to 590 grain arrow. feathers are either 5.25" shield helical 3-fletch or 4.25" banana offset 4-fletch. they've worked just fine for me. [/b]

X2 on the beman 500's
just learned the hard way that I was overspined and my set up now is almost exactly like Rob's.
500 spine cut to 29 3/4" with 300 gr. up front. out of a 60@28 Liberty English drawn to 28ish.

Hermon · August 21, 2014, 05:29:00 PM

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

so for carbons, i use cheap beman bowhunters, 500 spine, 29" long from depth of nock to the end of the insert, with 250 to 350 grains of point and adapter up front for a 510 to 590 grain arrow. feathers are either 5.25" shield helical 3-fletch or 4.25" banana offset 4-fletch. they've worked just fine for me. [/QB]

What weight bow are you shooting these out of Rob?