2 Bare shaft and spine questions

[Passingthrough]

Hey guys I'm new to traditional shooting and equipment set up but not to archery hunting. However, I have a few questions with bare shaft tuning. I resently moved up in poundage about 2 months ago or so and shoot my lighter arrow set up pretty well but wanted to know your thoughts on a few things.

Should I be concerned when I shoot a bare shaft and it fishtails a little before hitting the target? It hits right next to my fletched arrow but sometimes I get erratic flight. I think this could be my release at times. It seems to shoot tail left and low. I catch my fletched arrow doing the same from time to time but not consistently.

Question #2:first a little about my set up. I'm shooting a hoyt excel ilf riser (yes hold the chuckles...lol..no worries traditional archers I'm going to a wooden bow next season...lol)with a flipper rest, 47-48lbs at my draw of 28" on blackmax med limbs, B50 string, three 4" feathers, three under, here comes the tricky part I have been working with a 272gr beman bowhunter full length shaft with a 175gr tip (total weight 447gr)and it flies great and bare shafts well. It is a little loud, faster, and a slight bit touchy with form.

I have been playing with a 317gr 400spine beman bowhunter full length with a 250gr tip (total weight 567gr). This set up shoots quieter, slower, a hair more consistent, and ever so slightly less close with bare shaft tune than the lighter set up.

I will be shooting whitetail deer from a treestand mostly..unless I run into one to or from stand. Hogs might be in my future later this year.

Which of the two arrow set ups would you recommend?

[xtrema312]

 

Okay everyone will need more info to get started.  So lets start with what hand do you shoot with, what is your draw length, what is the measurment from center to your rest, and what is the spine on the first listed arrow, light arrow?

[Passingthrough]

I'm a right handed shooter, dl at 28", excel riser is cut to center or just past. I don't know how to measure center to rest. Riser to rest edge of flipper is 3/8" I have no more inward adjustment on my rest to the right. Spine of first (light)arrow is 500 spine full length 31 1/2". The heavier one is 400spine and 32". Just how beman cuts them for some reason.

[Passingthrough]

Do you need any more info?

[NBK]

48lbs @28inches:  the 500 spine arrows will give you more room to work/tune.  The 400 spine will have to be full length with alot of weight up front.  

A properly tuned shaft with 9-10 grains per pound draw weight is a proven formula.  So in your case 480 gr. arrow is perfectly acceptable.

Bareshafting gets you in the ballpark, however, I never like to be "tail low".  Try raising your nock point and shooting 3 under, make sure you have a nock above and below the arrow.

Good luck.

[Easykeeper]

I think it's unlikely that two different arrow setups with the same point weight but different spine will tune the same, even though the weaker spine is one inch shorter...possible since carbons are sensitive to length, but unlikely.  Pay attention to what the groups you shoot are saying, one will turn out to be correct.  Make sure you have several different point weights available during your bare shaft tuning.

On a side note, nothing wrong with a Hoyt Excel, probably one of the best bang for the buck rigs out there from what I've read.  For your plunger setup, most of us finger shooters impart some horizontal displacement of the string/arrow at release so you don't necessarily want "perfect" centershot.  Nock an arrow and with the bow at brace look from behind, center the sting in the riser/limbs and make sure the arrow tip is slightly to the other side of the riser...I've always been told about half an arrow diameter outside of perfect centershot.    There are people on here who know a lot more than me about tuning with a plunger, maybe they will post up.  Think of the plunger position and spring tension as another variable in your tuning, like spine, shaft length, or point weight.

If you are shooting three under, make sure you use two nock points, one above and one below the nock.  It's possible for the nock to slide on the string at release giving you either a low nock response you can't tune out or the back of the arrow will actually bounce off the shelf/rest and give the appearance of nock high...in effect a false nock high situation.  A nocking point below the arrow nock will eliminate the possibility.  A tied in nock point underneath will be better for your glove or tab in the long rung.  

Bare shaft tuning can be confusing at first but after a while it becomes pretty intuitive.  When in doubt about your results, move back.  The further from your target the more meaningful your results.  What looks good at 15 yards might not be so good at 25.  It all comes down to shooting groups consisting of two or three bare shafts and two or three fletched shafts (obviously of identical length, spine, point weight) and comparing the relative impact points between the bare and fletched shafts.  This link explains it better than I can...   www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning

[Passingthrough]

Thanks NBK I do shoot with 2 tied on knocking points top nocking point is set at 7/16" high. I'll try moving them up a little. How far apart should these nocking points be. I mean the space between them where the nock goes. I shoot 3under aswell.

Sorry if I miss stated that Easykeeper the light shaft 500spine is shooting a 175gr. tip and the heavier 400spine shaft is tipped with a 250gr point. Both with factory insert. I grabbed a few fieldpoint test kits for just such fun, I mean driving myself crazy, I mean fun...lol.

thanks everyone please keep the suggestions coming. Still wondering if shooting bareshafts should I worry about them fishtailing?

[NBK]

I find it easier to adjust my nocking point by starting too high and working my way down.  I'd start at 3/4" high and watch that arrow fly nock high, then slowly adjust 1/8th down at a time until it's hitting the target slightly nock high.

As far as your shafts fishtailing, I'm not sure, smarter guys than me can chime in.  Most agree that point of impact is more important than what they look like getting there.  Ideally the bareshaft will fly with minimal movement.  Ken Beck of black widow describes it as "like a water mocassin" through the air.  My eyes must not be good enough because if I'm weak, my nock flies left all the way and if I'm stiff my nock flies right all the way and if I'm pretty good it flies nock high, but straight right to left.

If you're new to shooting a trad bow, I wouldn't pull your hair out over bareshafting because it really is so sensitive of your release.  Pick whatever arrows fly the most consistent for you, fletch em and if they fly pretty good, you're good.

[Easykeeper]

I agree with NBK, start high on the nock point...high enough so that you know it's   too high, then come down as you read your groups.  I shoot split but when I have experimented with three under I usually ended up pretty high for a nocking point, in the neighborhood of 3/4" or even over.  My bows are all tillered for split, I'm assuming that's part of the high nock point.

Also agree that in general bare shafts don't fishtail they plane.  It's kind of like sticking your hand out the window of a car at high speed, if you don't have your hand in just the right position it planes off the oncoming air in one direction or the other.  When the bare shaft is not correct I can usually see it heading downrange with a slight lean and then at some point it just takes off right/left/up/down...not really a lot of wobble.  A bare shaft that is way off might miss the target completely, hence the start close part...lol.

[Passingthrough]

Thanks guys I moved the nocking point and adjusted it down. Just the slightest bit nock high left now bareshafted. Fletched shoot dead on now.

I nicked my heavy arrow set up last night and flex tested and she went SNAP. So, I added broadheads to the lighter set up and they shoot better than my field points if that is possible. Keeping all my shots inside a 3" circle at 25yds. That's pretty good shooting for me.

For those that might know my arrow bare shaft still planes a hair nock left and then straightens out and hits right with my fletched arrows. Is this a bad thing or do bare shafts fly a little squirrely sometimes if they are spined correctly?

[NBK]

Slight nock left bareshaft is what you want cause the fletchings will stiffen the arrow some.  If youre grouping 3" at 25 yards with broadheads you're golden.  Seriously, your done!  Fletch em all and go hunting!

[Passingthrough]

Thanks Mike. I was hoping so. Whitetail season will be here in no time. Thanks so much for your help! Good Luck this season.

[JamesKerr]

I would say you are good to go if you're keeping a 3" group at 25 yards consisting of bare shafts, fletched shafts, and broadhead arrows. As far as the bare shaft having an angle to it. You have to have an absolutely perfect release to get a bareshaft to fly perfectly straight. I have found that for me with my style of shooting (I use the push release) 90% of the time my bareshafts impact tail right but group right with all my other arrows at pretty good distances. As long as your bare shafts group with everything else your good to go.

[Passingthrough]

Thanks James. I was thinking it was something like that. I appreciate all of you on tradgang. Huge help!