Which Arrow for Elk

[elknut1]

[/IMG]

[elknut1]

[/IMG]

[James Wrenn]

I don't know squat about elk myself.

I do know that they are like anything else in that you got to hit them before you kill them.The 184fps arrow will make the most important part of hitting them easier than the slower arrow so it would be my choice. Even if I had to shoot a smaller broadhead if I thought it was needed. jmo

[Bjorn]

Kingwouldbe has killed more Elk and supersized Hogs than most of us can dream about-all with Trad gear. His set up has proved it's worth.

[Slasher]

9.18 gpp vs 11.45 gpp...
  web page

Interesting post.. Especially like O.L. posts to show the science to show the trade offs of vel, ke, mometuum...  


I doubt the drop will be as big of an issue.... I personally think the latest wheelie speed bow will shoot even flatter... But since we choose the voluntary restraint of what trad offers... I think both would kill... Primitive archers are able to do so with the limitations of lower weight stone heads and much lower bow efficiencies..

9 gpp seems ok for medium sized game... Most of the hoghunting fellas want more... I would  want more for a half ton elk... I think a lil more efoc would aid penetration as well...  Do you have enough length to cut back shafts to increase spine  in order to go heavier on the head? I'd suggest at least 10 gpp and think heavier is better until about 12 gpp...

[Richie Nell]

"Weight of an arrow within reason of course is nothing when compared to a truly razored up broadhead that is tuned beautifully to ones arrow!"

That statement kinda suggests that a heavy arrow is unlikely to be truly razored up or beautifully tuned to the arrow.  And that is ridiculous.
Its kind of like the statement.."just hit him in the right spot and don't worry about it..or hit em in the boiler room is what counts."

OF COURSE...That is all a given.

A heavy arrow can have the exact same sharp broadhead, it can be shot just as accurately and it can be tuned just as beautifully as any other lighter arrow.
BUT....At the "30 yard" range that was suggested the lighter arrow is NOT going to carry the momentum that the heavy arrow is.  The heavier arrow doesn't like to stop near as fast as the lighter arrow.  
That is a reason to use the heavier arrow.

I would rather be hit with a plastic wiffle ball at 50 mph than a shot putt at 5 mph....assuming they were tuned properly of course.

[elknut1]

[/IMG]" target="_blank">http:// [/IMG]

Here's a picture of an elk cut-out, hopefully it works! (grin) Now please show me all this steel armor plate we need to get through! Incidentally, since when is 500grns light? 350-400grns is considered light!

 Check out the position of an elks scapula, it's not a good shot selection no matter the arrow or equipment used, you hit it & your odds of recovery go way down even if you get through the lower portion, fact is stay away from crowding the plate you will lose more than you win!

 ElkNut1

[Richie Nell]

If all the "givens" are taken care of...sharp head, well tuned arrow, proficient practice with your weapon, etc.  what is a reason to NOT use a sayyyy....650+ grain arrow for elk?  What does a a hunter loose by shooting the heavier arrow?

[Steve B.]

elknut,
you make one very good point about not discounting what works for others.  If you can knock elk down with rubber bands everytime then whom am I to argue.
A sharp broadhead with 25" of arrow sticking out of that elk may not kill it.  There is no armour plating but if you center a rib with a light(er) arrow out of a light bow or get some arrow deflection off of some twig, or whatever, you may be sorry.
If 500 grn arrows are already proven to not have a problem with all of this then sounds like there is no arguement, but it sounds like that is not conclusive for everyone.

I practice at 30 yds with selfbows and shoot 630-780 grn arrows consecutively and get nowhere near 20" of drop difference.  Scientifically it might be provable that they do but in practice I do not have that problem.  A 600+ grn. arrow out of that ACS bow should sizzle down range and that is what I would use.

[Steve B.]

The thing about elk that I don't think people realize is not that they are thick skinned and thick boned, it is that they can be tenacious.  Their tendency is to run harder and further in the first place, when spooked, so even with a good shot they can put enough ground between them and the hunter to make finding them difficult.  Not always, but often enough that you'll hear those stories, and from rifle hunters too.
Add to that an elk that is shot with a less than ideal shot and you have an elk that can get completely out of that area on you.

I've heard too many stories from bow and rifle hunters of broadheads and bullets found inside of elk that have been there for weeks or months.
So you definately want the full package....max penetration and maximum cutting.

[elknut1]

I certainly agree with your folks last thoughts to an extent. But define "light". I have said that heavier setups work just fine, no question there. You guys are the ones stating that 500 is Too light. I've proven as have others that's non-sense. It's what some have read in books that are misleading them. Actual testing & proof of meat on the ground & horns of the wall prove otherwise!

 For the record, ribs are not solid bone contact, even a 25lb bow will blow through an elk rib, a rib is no match for any 50#-55# bow. Look at the kill zone well, on a broadside or quartering away shot do you want to hit the leg-bone or plate? No, you must hit them where they live regardless of what "rubber band" you're shooting.

 Steve B. please go outside & shoot a 500grn arrow then shoot a 700 grn arrow. Use your point on tip at 25 yds shoot both, you'll see the 20" drop. Don't dare go to 35yds or more or you'll see 4' in drop. (grin)

 King, how many elk have you lost with a 500grn setup? My gut tells me you've not tried one! I mean no offense but one shouldn't knock others because they may use different setups!

 ElkNut1

[Steve B.]

elknut,
There is no "light", there is only "lighter".  The argument is not that 500 is too light, its that 600 is better.

And the argument is not whether 500 shoots flatter.  The arguement there is, as Bjorn said, that there is no "drop".  You are not out hunting with 500 and 700 grn arrows, shooting max distances at elk.  You are out hunting with whatever you have been shooting all year, and at ranges that you shot all year.  So why would I move back to 35 yds.?  

And likewise, the argument is not whether such and such a rig will break a rib...its whether that rib is slowing down one setup MORE than another.

[Bjorn]

No idea what kind of bow you are shooting; but your 'test' is not wotking for me. I took a 560gn arrow-lightest I have-and a 700 gn arrow and shot both at 25 yds 3 times-to try and be fair I always shot the light one first. I have never shot 'point on' before so someone else may need to try that too.
I got an average drop difference of 6". Maybe it is the bow?

[wtpops]

Elknut1, hello good to see you here as a member, I'm going on my first elk hunt in Sep 2010. Found your web site and find it to be a wealth of info, I will be reading it for the next year and will be buying your books to fill my brain with as much knowledge as I can.

About arrow drop, with trad gear there is no perceived arrow drop. If you shoot 500 grain arrows they go where you look if you shoot 700 grain arrows they go where you look. Now if you shoot 500 grain arrows and switch to 700 grain arrows the day before the hunt you will shoot under everything you shoot at, at a distance, now if you switch 6 months or a year before the hunt and get your brain trained, weight will be earlavent.

I shoot 56# and a 530 grain arrow. I am going to switch to a 600 to 650 grain arrow right now. I know my 530 arrow will do the job but the heaver arrow in my little mind will boost my confidence and that is a big part to.

Key here is this will work for ME.

[elknut1]

Thanks!

 I shoot both instinctive & gap, this is why it's important to me. But you are correct that if you shoot instinctive only, it only takes a short time to be accustomed to whatever arrows you shoot! Makes perfect sense! (grin)

 I would be the first to jump on the 600grn+ band wagon my friends if I was having any issues with penetrating & killing any animal I hunt. Fact is I've had no issues at all this is why I can honestly recommend a 475grn arrow to a 700grn arrow depending on draw weight shot. In my case I prefer a 480grn to 515 grn arrow, that's with a 200grn head wt. It works well for us!

 Here's several bulls we took all with 500grn setups! We have more but you can see no issues or reasons to change!

 ElkNut1

   [/IMG]  

  [/IMG]

   [/IMG]

[elkbreath]

Elknut, thanks for your thoughts.  No doubt they've worked for you.  And they do work for others.  I have killed several with lighter setups than you're talking about here. And on the other side, I've killed another bunch with the heavier.  They both work!  and if you want to use em go for it!  

The drop thing is relative though, as I don't find it any harder to hit at further distances, given the ability to practice with both.  

But, to say that lighter are as good at penetration and killing power as a heavier EFOC arrow just ain't true, even at relatively slower speeds.  If we hypothetically went to Africa to kill an elephant, I'm willing to bet most here would take a heavy arrow and sharp cut on contact 2 blade.  Heavier meaning heavier than lighter.  In the instance mentioned at the top of the the thread we're given two options from the same bow.  The heavier one would out penetrate the lighter given a clean shot within ethical limitations.  

Ashbys studies are hardly misleading.  They are the most scientific thing we have in this field, with by the far the most kills recorded in detail to produce it from anything I've heard of, more than I'll likely see in a lifetime of hunting and killing, even at the rate of kiling a bull or four a year.   They show consistently that a heavier arrow given the same head and flight characteristics will penetrate deeper regardless of what it is shot into, in an unbiased manner.  Physics behind momentum describe the same ability.   That is all that the argument is.  So, if that's what he is looking for, the ability to kill most effeciently, use the heavier and stay within your limitations.

However, if you are more confident with the lighter, use it, since it too will do the job.

All of the data scientifically, and I would argue theoretically, is in the ashby camp on this one.  

Subjectively though, you're entirely correct that there is room for difference of opinion; in that if you are confident with the lighter setup and believe it to be more than enough for the given animal, especially favoring that setup at a further distance, than go to it.  If you shoot the heavier great at the same distance though, well...around we go.


If you like lighter arrows good on you. like I stated earlier:
"I got a pass thru with bemans and a 125 gr razorcap, shooting a 65# saluki.
however I also got complete penetration AFTER cutting an unforseen limb in midair  with 750 gr arrow tipped with a 290 gr ribtek. thats when I appreciate the extra umph."  A lighter arrow may have deflected enough to gie me one lung or worse, a non vital hit.  

 That's My opinion, which also has a bunch of testing, meat on the ground and horns on the wall to back it up.

I consider you a friend here, so if we gotta hang this one on the wall and just disagree, I'm all for it.  Perhaps we can have that argument over a fire in camp some day!  

:-)

[elkbreath]

sorry didn't see you post.  I'll never tire of seeing that big boy in the creek!  

Looks like we've come to an understanding though.  Shoot straight, I'll be ordering up a few spare calls in a week or so.

Regards, Dan

[SteveB]

No question you can be every bit as accurate with a heavy arrow as a lightER one at longer distances. There is a difference in arrow drop. It only becomes a problem when you might see a 25 yd shot as say 20 yds (consciously or sub consciously/instinctively). Then the margin of error increases more with the slower heavier arrow because of the differnce in drop.

Easy to do in the heat of the moment with a big critter with seconds or less to shoot. A faster arrow allows me to make the shot a good one a greater % of the time.

Steve

[SteveB]

The heavier one would out penetrate the lighter given a clean shot within ethical limitations.

No doubt - but using those parameters, the only difference to the choices of the original question is how deep in the dirt are the 2 arrows.

[George D. Stout]

If both arrows are flying perfectly, the heavier will "probably" out penetrate the lighter, providing both are the same material and are within reaon the same relative energy level at impact.   The perhaps one can measure how far out the other side they will land 8^).

Elknut has shown his arrows work fine, there is no need to even discuss why.  They work....great.
I don't think anyone here really realizes what an arrow can do from 400 to 800 grains.  At some point we know there will be diminishing returns, but to argue with someone about their choice, when it is proven to work well, is flat out stupid.