Best penetrating broadheads

[overbo]

Sometimes lack of penetration has more to do w/ the reaction of the animal at the shot,than bow and arro set-up.
An alert animal will more likely to be making a MAJOR evasive move at release and reduce pentration greatly on impact.

[SuperK]

Good stuff ya'll, keep it up.  I wonder how many folks that THINK they are hitting deer in the shoulder blade are actually hitting the "rib extensions" above the backbone?  If a deer "squats on the shot" and the hunter is shooting from a treestand, this can easily "look like" you hit'em in the shoulder but if fact you are not.  There are some real good websites that shows deer anatomy.  See what you think.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I think it's admirable that folks are actively seeking more lethal arrow combinations in the quest for increased confidence. Some people choose bigger broadheads out of fear of hitting an animal too far back, while others go the opposite route to reduce anxiety about strikes to heavy bone. Both paths have firm foundations in logic.

But there is a tremendous difference between selecting arrows to hedge against accidentally hitting heavy bone or vital organs behind the diaphragm, and making equipment decisions with the intention of purposely shooting deer in those locations. I wear a safety harness in the hope it will protect me if I fall, not because I plan on purposely jumping out of my treestand.

With respect to the shooting at the heavy frontal bone structure of a deer—or any member of the deer family for that matter; be it whitetail, blacktail, mule deer, elk or moose—it baffles me as to why anyone would do such a thing. For the most part, unless you're intentionally selecting very poor shot angles, the upper leg bone and shoulder blade cover only the frontal outer periphery of the major vital organs. If my intention is to shoot my arrow through the mouth of a five-gallon bucket, I'm not going to aim for the rim. I'll pick a spot in the center that affords me the largest margin of error. That spot on a broadside or somewhat quartering away deer is nowhere near heavy bone.

...I fear the use of some magic, single-bevel, will make shoulder aimers come out of the closet.

George, your fear is well founded. We went through this same thing a year ago, with more than a few folks posting that they planned to harvest deer in the upcoming season by intentionally shooting them through the shoulders. I was curious to see if there'd be a flurry of happy success stories that fall and winter as a result of such attempts.

If anyone posted positive results please accept my apologies, because I must have missed them. But what I did notice was that this talk of breaking down deer through the shoulder bones—as if we're hunting with 7mm's—mysteriously all but disappeared during and immediately following last year's hunting season. That pretty much told me all I needed to know.

If someone's still determined to send arrows into the heavy front skeletal structure of deer, they certainly don't need my consent. But recreational bowhunters have been humanely killing deer by shooting them with normal arrows and broadheads behind the front shoulders and through both lungs for well over a hundred years. Since I don't think the good Lord is putting deer together any differently now than he did back then, I figure I'll stick to that plan.  

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by Littlefeather:
Most guys miss too far back instead of too far forward. I believe this is because of guys teaching for years and years to NOT hit bone because it will stop an arrow. I believe this has unconsciously led to guys to fear the shoulder. Fear of the shoulder has guys gut shooting animals. If a guys equipment had no problem with bone then therotically he wouldn't be gut shooting for fear of bone. Think about it, why is too far back such an issue that it runs rampant to a fault among todays archers? If a guy is gonna miss he misses too far back more often than too far forward. I think we all need to work on the mental aspect of things instead of equipment. Quit fearing bone! If you fear it, shoot something that goes through it.

If I'm gonna gut shoot game I'd certainly shoot the biggest 6-10 blade broadhead I could get. The point is to hit heart/lungs. If you fear bone then it's hard to get yourself to shoot forward.

Very good point CK. Kinda embarrased to say I never thought of it like that... Very good point indeed. I hunted hogs for the first time this year and found that I had more than a little trouble forcing myself to aim for the shoulder when preparing/practicing for the hunt because I've only hunted deer for the last 35 years. I guess I have been "taught" to excessively fear those shoulders myself. I won't intentionally aim for the shoulders but, I think I will crowd that shoulder a little more in the future than I used to.

Ron

[Stone Knife]

Any hair popping two blade, put in the right spot will come out the other side.

[SteveB]

Jason - thank you for an excellent post.
Very hard to dismiss the "bucket " anology.

Steve

[Doc Nock]

I sure don't get to shoot at, let alone "kill" a lot of deer or critters like many on this site.

But after due diligence, I chose to do the Primos Team thing..aim for the heart, low tight behind the front leg at that crease..

If they don't "drop" it's a killing heart shot..if they do, it's a 12 ring area shot.

that gives me confidence.

Jason made a great point about tree stand harness...wearing one for that "chance of error".

Exactly why I'm going with the sharpest, single bevel I can find and afford (not necessarily both)because I like the science behind their design.

Margin of error. But again, Stoney's point about hair poppin sharp... wins every time.

Been lotsa threads on what is "really" sharp...not just sharp goin in, but an edge that maintains it's sharpness all the way through the deer, even if it busts a rib or whatever...

Sharp broadheads of many designs kills.

[BradLantz]

Just wondering what everyone thinks are some of the better penetrating broadheads, especially when you hit bone and such

I would think physics dictates the smaller the broadhead, the "better" the penetration meaning how far the arrow/head will travel before stopping.

That's not exactly all that has to be put into choosing your arrow/head combo though, is it?

Last year I killed a nice buck, and my arrow passed through and was laying on the ground where he'd been standing. I was using a 3 blade Thunderhead. Had I been using 2 blade Silver Flames maybe I'd have buried the arrow 5" into the dirt instead?

On the flip side, maybe that 2 blade wouldn't have cut as much as that 2 blade did on the way through, and I'd have had a long blood trail?


After all the trials and attempts and different broadheads and arrows and weights etc, I'm an absolute firm believer in using a 700+ grain combination, and a 3 blade broadhead. For me, thats a weighted carbon and Thunderhead 160's


I'd LOVE to see Thunderhead make a new solid steel 3 blade in the 175 gr range that has single bevel replaceable blades. THAT would be the bomb!

[swampbuck]

5 pages            

This argument is probably carved in a cave wall someplace and after seeing it once or twice ,more actually it almost seems ammusing...almost

Pick the head that YOU have the most confidence in and thats both accuracy and being able to get it sharp.If "YOU" beleive in your setup it'll go a long ways towards whats best for "you"

[straitera]

Big thanks for everyone's input. Just as there's no one way to skin a cat, opinions differ. Smart folks learn from other's mistakes. Mistakes generate strong opinions. In our hearts, we all mean well especially teaching those less experienced about equipment and technique. Much obliged! The most important priority; however, is total respect for the animal. That means commitment to insure a good clean quick kill & recovery. This includes all the variables; woods skills, shot selection, BH, bow, recovery expertise, & practice techniques & shooting confidence. Is any one point less important?

A world of practical information in Ben's setup specs & hog pic. *Can't follow a nonexistent blood trail. The massive KE makes short work of the hog even through bone. Great to see damage capabilities at this weight. See why penetration is crucial just as Dr. Ashby states.

[goblism]

Simply great info.  What I have gathered the most from this thread is that there are pluses and minuses to every broadhead out there.  If I know that I usually stay away from the shoulder i might want a 3-blade or a larger 2-blade to make up for some potential gut shots.  On the other-hand I may be the type that crowds the shoulder, so a good sharp 2-blade single bevel would be better suited for me.  Than I can add in cost of broadheads vs. hardness, difficulty to sharpen, and ability to hold an edge and a guys head could spin with all the possibilities.

Well when I aim at a deer I aim at a crease on the deer, the crease that is straight up from the leg and where the muscle group curves in.  This puts me just at the top of the heart.  I hunt Minnesota deer, which are far from small (shot a 200lb one first time with a wheel bow followed by a "small" 170lb buck.  This is pretty much a blessing when it comes to accuracy because most deer I have shot with various weapons have 15-16" from the top of the back to the belly, creating a much larger vital area in comparison to smaller deer found in some of the southern states.

But back to where I was going with my aiming spot.  Assuming the deer doesn't jump the string, my arrow is located closer to the shoulder in comparison to the gut based on my personal aiming location.  Because of this I believe my best option is a nice 2-blade because I have an increased liklihood of shooting that deer in the shoulder in comparison to shooting it in the gut.  No I will not be aiming for the shoulder, but instead will be aiming at the top of the heart.  If the arrow connects exactly where I am aiming I may not even need to track the deer (Every deer i have shot in the heart have made it less than 20 yards)

Not sure if all of my logic is just, but i think i will be trying out some grizzlys and some tuskers, figure out if i like them, if i don't this website has classifieds and i can always sell them and maybe give some abowyers a try or even some woodsman if i can get comfortable enough to shoot 3-blades.

Also I may be taking my longbow on an elk hunting trip this fall.  This creates a much larger demand for using a 2-blade.  I will be shooting a 48# @28" black swan hybrid bow with about 510 grain arrows.  This isn't an optimal elk hunting rig by most, but I believe the extra penetration capabilities of a 2-blade single bevel head would be much more important with elk in comparison to the much smaller counterpart of whitetail deer

[Hawkeye]

There have been a lot of excellent hunters who have checked in on this thread, but in hopes of getting the thread to 6 pages    , I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents' worth...

Over the past couple years, I came across several diagrams that got me thinking about my aiming spot on deer.  Here's an example:  http://www.rubsnscrapes.com/Articles/deer_shot_placement_anatomy.php

Except for quartering away situations, I decided I had been aiming too far back to provide any safety margin.  I DON'T intentionally try to hit the shoulder bone, but now shoot straight up from the back of the foreleg and about 1/4 of the way up the body.  My intended target is the set of arteries just above the heart, but if I miss a little in any direction, there is nothing but good stuff to hit!

My scarred brain won't recall the name I'm trying to get, but 15 years ago, I talked to the guy - was it Abel?- who took over manufacturing (or at least distributing) Grizzlies from Harry Elburg.  I don't shoot Griz's but something he said struck me that day, and made even more sense after I discovered the above diagrams.

He said, "People shy away from shooting at the shoulder of a deer, but that's exactly where they SHOULD be shooting!"  I doubt he meant we should intentionally try to split bone, although he was talking about the penetration of the Grizzly head.

What it all means to me now is that I shoot for the shoulder... the MEAT of the shoulder... instead of for the "crease" on a broadside shot.  Last season, four deer found that approach to be pretty effective!!

Thanks for a good discussion,

Daryl

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by goblism:
... a guys head could spin with all the possibilities.

Yup, that about sums it up.

Ron

[BRITTMAN]

Best for me has been the Magnus 2 blade stinger .

Mike

[Terry Green]

Great post Jason, I too aim for the middle of the mouth of the bucket...for the obvious reasons.

That's where the vital are.    

   

     

[IronCreekArcher]

Right on guys..now we are getting somewhere.  I had not thought that much about shot placement until I saw the picture that was posted by Daryl and Terry.  I used to aim tight behind the crease of the shoulder and now am thinking that my be a touch to far back.  I have killed a dozen deer or so shooting tight to the crease but would like to have a little larger margin for error.  Thank you guys for posting the anatomy pictures they have helped me visualize something I did not give much thought to beyond hunters safety class all those years ago.  Keep it going great thread guys and maybe my post will take it to 6 pages...    :D

[Guru]

Better pix to see how hog vitals really lie within the body of a hog.....to me, that man made diagram is a little off...

Spine comes thru the shoulder area lower which puts the heart and lungs lower also....the cut away of the real hog shows that...

[Terry Green]

Some folks think the shoulder BONE is much more in the way....but its mostly muscle that they are seeing live and meat off the leg bone.  No problem getting through the meat with most SHARP broadheads with hunting weight bows n arrows.  Deer aren't armor plated in the least bit, though big heavy shielded boar hogs need consideration on head choice depending on the weight of the bows n arrows.

Arrows aren't bullets, and never will be.  I've said it before, there is no guarantee of a shoulder bone/blade pass through, but you can pass through the lungs all day for free.

More shots are 'farther back' rather than 'too far forward' from all the stats I've seen.  No matter the reason, they just are....so I aim accordingly....and choose my broadhead accordingly.


   

   

[Bert Frelink]

For what it's worth, here is my $0.02,
The best penetrating broadhead is on the end of the arrow that get's the best arrow flight.
Regards, Bert.

[IronCreekArcher]

Great pics Curt...I would agree with your little off statement.  Do you know if any pics exist like the pig ones you posted but of a mature deer?