Ashby Part 4 is posted!

[Dave2old]

For those of you seeking glue-on left single-bevels, they are now available from Eclipse as special orders on their standard 125 and 145 two-blades, left and right at 25 degree bevel with a tip that takes just a couple of file strokes to convert to Tanto. You can order them off the website direct, or through a distributor. In other words, they are set up to start making them but haven't yet gotten any stock into the system. While they aren't factory shooting sharp, they are fairly easy to sharpen with a file and stone, as opposed to those danged Grizzlies. I just got a half dozen and can't wait to try them out on a heavy-boned tom turkey! dave

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

David, thanks for the details on the photo. I'm always interested in the results other get.

At one point, a few years back, I found myself passing up perfect shots, in favor of pushiung the envelope of what the arrows could/would do. Not something I would recommend, but that was with arrows that I tested hard, and felt certain could take out both shoulders on big hogs, right through the ball joint, and still exit - and felt I just had to prove to myself that they could and would do that, without fail, on real hunting shots. That was with a high poundage longbow (94#@27") and heavy arrows that were right at 19% FOC ... but ones that didn't penetrate as well as the 150 grain lighter higher Extreme FOC arrows I'm using now, from a 82#@27" longbow.

Dave, good news on the Eclipse. After you try them out with a low angle single-bevel, let me know how the edge holds up. I have some No Mercy SB's on the way, to test this year.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

David, what I started out to mention in the above post (before my thoughts got side tracked) was that, if you're wanting to crash through those heavy shoulder bones, it's a good idea to test your setup against those bones on your downed animals before you try them as your primary shot. I almost always have an experimental setup or two along when I hunt, just for that purpose.

Nowadays, most of what I carry along for 'opportunistic testing' are not something for a better setup, but something I want to evaluate, like a particular BH on a setup that I have comparative data for with other BH's from the same bow and similar arrow setup.

For your purposes, develop a test setup that you think might offer and advantage. When opportunity presents, test it side by side against the one you're currently using. Unlike firearms, you can poke a lot of holes into a downed animal with arrrows without any loss of usable meat. There are several potential heavy bone test sights on a downed animal; scapula, humerus, femur, pelvic girdle, and even the skull.

You can get a lot of first hand data that's specific to your setup that way, and the more you learn about your setup's capabilities, the more you'll know about both shot options and likely outcomes when you see your arrow has impacted somewhere you didn't intend.

It also helps everyone else out if you'll post your observations from time to time. You don't have to go to the extremes of data collection that I do. It's still interesting.

Looking forward to seing results from any you come up with.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Rich LaBombard]

Dr. Ashby, if you ever get a chance, could you walk us through how you set up to tune a bow/arrow combo?  (what techniques you use)

Thank you for your efforts,
Rich

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

         

Rich, if you look back to around mid-December to around Christmas it's posted in detail on three of four Pow Wow threads, and has been on a few threads this year, both on Pow Wow and the Dangerous Game and Dark Continent forums. I should have just kept a copy of one for re-posting, but didn't.  

If you can't locate one or the other of them, let me know and I'll repost it ... and keep myself a copy this time.    

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Rich LaBombard]

Great,I'll find it, thank you sir!

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Rich, I sincerely mean it: If you can't locate it, just let me know and I'll write it out ... but I hope you can! I'm a two finger typist. Let me know if you do locate it too.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Rich LaBombard]

Hi Dr. Ed: yes, I found one on your 12/13/07 pow-wow thread titled "accuracy and traditional broadheads", and it's just what I was looking for!
Again, thank you for your efforts,
Rich

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Thanks Rich. I was actually dreading typing all that out again!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Kingwouldbe]

Thanks Doc. for your replies a big 10-4 on experimenting first on animals already down.

Came across this guy the other day rooting in some strong wind, he was doing a head stand trying to get to some bulbs or roots.

I had a shot at around 25 yards but he was in a hole, so I kept getting closer and closer until I was 15 feet away.

I lined up his body and came to full draw, I picked a spot and hit the clicker and the arrow disappeared in the spot, he was not that big so I knew I could get to the vitals but he ate the whole thing with an exit through the bottom of the scapula

He jumped forward and blood gushed from the entrance wound.

He didn't want to move he was hit hard, he took about ten steps and fell over.

 


 

PS that only looks like blood all over the ground, but you know 2 blades leave a spars blood trail    

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

David, that's great penetration.  Blood trail is not as important when they drop virtually on the spot!

On the next pig, after he's down, try a rear shot, somewhat quartering, right into the ball-joint/pelvig girdle. WHEN YOU ARE USING A SETUP YOU'RE CERTAIN WILL BREAK THROUGH, that is a devistating shot on pigs from the rear-quartering angle. Always had enormous blood, and fast collapse-time with it. Many just drop in their tracks. Takes a great arrow setup though. I can routinely get an exit on those, and frequently get pass-throughs, even on sizable pigs.

You'll need to test it on a BIG FELLOW at some point, but if you can satisfactorily do that shot on him, you'll be safe using it on most any hog. It's a lot easier to stalk them from the rear; and to get the shot away. I understand that Ray likes those rear-end hits too and, similarly, has them dropping in their tracks.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[SlowBowinMO]

That is impressive penetration.  What's your draw weight and other specs on that set up?

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Tim, part of the setup is given on the pictures of that bigger pig on page 1. Those were 56#, 550 gr arrow, 160 grizzly. Don't see the other specifics listed; FOC, adaptor, insert.

I'm curious what he'll see on the hip-joint/pelvic girdle impacts; and what effect-difference he would see by bumping arrow mass up to around 650 grains would show on such heavy-bone hits.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Kingwouldbe]

Doc. that does sound like it will take a strong set-up, are you talking about breaking the pelvic ball joint and keep going to the front and exiting, WOW!!! I like that.

 

Originally posted by SlowBowinMO:
That is impressive penetration.  What's your draw weight and other specs on that set up?

Slow, I shoot a 56lb Habu recurve it's about 10 years old and beat to death, my arrow is a beman blue jacket ( not available any more )it's vary small diameter about .2300, a grizzly 160 (so sharp most animals just lay down and die knowing it's on it's way) LOL with a Tonto tip

A long 42gr. insert, 3 5" Fletch, my arrow is 550gn for a 10gn. per pound formula.

I am working on implementing some more of the good Doc's ingredients to cook up a true freight-train of an arrow.

This is what I want to cook up...

Going up to 60lb bow.
125grain broad-head steel insert .
4-3" Fletch or 3-4"
This should make a 630gn arrow
If I need more weight I'll put it up front.

I could put some bird shot in the tip of the broad-head or some in the front of the shaft or something else in the shaft.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

David, that sounds like a great setup.

If you haven't yet, check the "Fletching and Extreme FOC" thread. As your FOC gets higher, I think you'll be able to use even samller flecthing, while still getting great flight stability and paradox recovery ... plus gaining a reduction in flight sound and a bit of increased arrow speed down-range.

Check out what Ray Hammond is using on his Grizzly tipped Extreme FOC's - low-profile 2" feathers 4 fletched! I'm impressed!

The Grizzly has among the least wind shear effect of any broadhead. I'm not sure that fletching that small (like Ray's) would be enough on a short-wide BH - but we're going to try and find out!

Please keep us all posted on how your setup progresses, and what you find when you performance test it on game.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Kingwouldbe]

You know Doc. I went to the grizzly head because I liked the 3 to 1 ratio, I never knew that the big advantage was the single bevel.

It is amazing the amount  of penetration I am getting, for 56lb's

But the combo of small shaft heavyweight arrow & single bevel cant be beat.

This buck was shot at about 13 yards on the ground with the same set up.

[SlowBowinMO]

Thanks for the update.  Ahh, skinny carbons!  I used those for a while, they penetrated better than anything else I've ever used!  I'm not surprised.

I've not posted on the fletch thread, it makes my head hurt,       but I have played with higher FOC lately.  I too have noticed when the FOC goes up, flight seems to improve as long as the spine is right.  I've got some heads that tend to be finicky that will fly like a laser when the point is loaded up.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

David,

It looks like you did a job on that deer too! I love testing on big pigs. They have substantial bones. If it works there, lighter stuff becomes a given.

It's going to take a while for folks to understand all the 'whys' behind single-bevels. I'm a bit concerned that so many seem to be rushing single-bevel BH's onto the market. Many are, I think, missing the importance of having a WIDE bevel; which means they need good blade thickness and a low bevel-angle; which, in turn, means steel of high hardness. The surface area of the bevel in contact is a big factor in getting the MAXIMUM benefits from a single-bevel.

Tim,

You have that precisely right. I've been trying to stress how very important it is to get the dynamic spine perfect. I hope it's sinking in. Getting the best performance one can is a package deal - can't just slap a lot of weight up front, put a single-bevel on just any broadhead and expect to get great results. Like most things in successful bowhunting, it's all about attention to the details.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow