HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Rob DiStefano]

overspined - his 60-70# firs are on the mark and his weaker spined 55-60# cedars are left of the mark.    :D

[Looper]

Rob, I don't understand what you are trying to say. I do aim down the shaft and I do have a good release. I use a sort of indirect aiming method, but most of my focus is on the target. I am aware of where the shaft is pointed, however. If I had form and release issues, don't you think they would show up with other arrows, as well? What I'm trying to tell you is that I only have this issue with these specific shafts. I can take one of any of one of the multitude of other shafts I have and, with maybe a slight nock or brace height adjustment, hit pretty darn close to where I'm looking out to about 40 yards.

I had a set of the 3rivers cedar test pack (50-55, 55-60, 60-65, 65-70)and could get all of those shafts to hit to the same spot.  Some flew better, but they'd still be in a softball-sized group at 20 yards.

I just went out a shot a group with a variety of shafts I have.  AD Hammerheads, GT 5575s, AD Trad Lites, Surewood 65/70, Surewood 60/65, cedar 65-70, cedar 60-65, and the cedar 55-60s. Even with the wide variety of spines, weights, and diameters, all but the 55-60 cedars in a 9" circle at 15 yards. The group was centered on my dot, but was a taller than it was wide. Those cedars were all touching about 6 inches left.

I don't have a spine finder, so maybe they are way off. At any rate, they don't fly to the same point of impact for me as the multitude of other arrows I have. I'm going to refletch them and see if that helps. At least I only have 3 of them left.

[Overspined]

I think I touched on that in my reply Rob, and I disagree 100% that spine doesn't matter. A fletched arrow may hit close, but fly like crap if the spine isn't close. Add broadheads and LOOK OUT.

[Looper]

Overspined, I hear you.  Out of my Hill, my preferred setup is some 145 gr Eclipse heads on 60-65 spine Surewoods.  They weigh around 640 grains.  It's a really quiet flying arrow, too.  

At any rate, I don't know what's going on with those particular shafts.  I have a couple of 55-60 spined cedars from a 3rivers test pack, and they don't fly with these.  The only difference is the fletching.

I'll just forget about them and give them to a buddy.  He won't know the difference. Talk about form and release problems.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Overspined:
I think I touched on that in my reply Rob, and I disagree 100% that spine doesn't matter. A fletched arrow may hit close, but fly like crap if the spine isn't close. Add broadheads and LOOK OUT.

i never said that spine didn't/doesn't matter.  i said that the correct spine for a bow and archer will allow the shaft to fly well.  which sounds exactly like yer saying.  however, you can make weak to stiff spined arrows group at the mark by "aiming the arrow" through form.  yep, they will not fly well, with some amount of fishtail, but they will go where you point them.  i don't like using this reference, but mr. hill could do just that with arrows of different spine and different length, out to around 30 yards.  he aimed the arrow.  we can too.  

adding in to the mix broadheads, and all bets are off!    :eek:

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by looper:
Rob, I don't understand what you are trying to say. I do aim down the shaft and I do have a good release. I use a sort of indirect aiming method, but most of my focus is on the target. I am aware of where the shaft is pointed, however. If I had form and release issues, don't you think they would show up with other arrows, as well?

no, because you have no issues with the fir arrows, only the cedars.  the prime difference, so far, 'tween the two is the spine.  how you shoot/aim/release those arrows is what matters most.  if well aimed, those weak shafts will fish tail but over some distance (15 yards) will group near the mark.

What I'm trying to tell you is that I only have this issue with these specific shafts. I can take one of any of one of the multitude of other shafts I have and, with maybe a slight nock or brace height adjustment, hit pretty darn close to where I'm looking out to about 40 yards.

I had a set of the 3rivers cedar test pack (50-55, 55-60, 60-65, 65-70)and could get all of those shafts to hit to the same spot.  Some flew better, but they'd still be in a softball-sized group at 20 yards.

then you just proved that you have an arrow problem.  case solved and closed.

I just went out a shot a group with a variety of shafts I have.  AD Hammerheads, GT 5575s, AD Trad Lites, Surewood 65/70, Surewood 60/65, cedar 65-70, cedar 60-65, and the cedar 55-60s. Even with the wide variety of spines, weights, and diameters, all but the 55-60 cedars in a 9" circle at 15 yards. The group was centered on my dot, but was a taller than it was wide. Those cedars were all touching about 6 inches left.

"bad arrows"     :D    

I don't have a spine finder, so maybe they are way off. At any rate, they don't fly to the same point of impact for me as the multitude of other arrows I have. I'm going to refletch them and see if that helps. At least I only have 3 of them left.

since yer shooting at a reasonable 15 yard distance, it really sounds like those cedars are far too stiff for yer bow/aim, and not at all too weak.

in any event, archery arm chair quarterbacking is difficult if not impossible.  and folks can get upset too easily over minced words.  but i will say again - if you have yer form/aim down, you can make any arrow find the vertical mark at 15 yards.  i'm no genius at all (for sure!), but at 25 yards i can make most any arrow fly to the vertical home without left/right issues (but definitely with some up/down issues!).  

i agree with rik - get rid of those poc's and stick with surewood doug fir.      :D                

[frank bullitt]

Can't say much more!    

As for those cedars flying left, I think they are "floaters"! To light, and your follow thru isn't "flexing" thru the shot!

I have seen this shooting eastern woodland stlyle bows.

[Nate Steen .]

Hopefully I'll have a tale to tell this week....one more hunting chance.....


guys, here's a topic that was started weakly a few    pages ago....longbow literature...what's your favorite and why? let's start with the older classics first......

I'll start....besides the usual Robin Hood stuff, I'm in the middle of "The White Company" courtesy of Rob D's influence...a great book, which inspired me to also purchase "Sir Nigel".

Also in the middle of "Sherwood"....from 1991....now that's a classic,  I was given a copy from my friend Don Myers in Oregon....this is a very good book....

[Looper]

I'm reading "The White Company", too. I forgot I had a copy at my mother's house.  It's been 20 years since I last read it. I just finished "The Witchery of Archery".

[Nate Steen .]

good stuff Rob,  that new system will be a good thing to forage through when we wish to look back....thanks for your efforts on behalf of us cranky long-limb bow-shooters  

[Mudd]

I just started "White Company" and have "Dies the Fire" waiting on the night table.

When it's just too hot to shoot, it's always cool enough to sit in front of the fan and read a good book or here on TG...lol

God bless,Mudd

[JohnHV]

Archery Literature:

I'm half way through White Company as well, thanks to it's being mentioned on this thread.  By the way for you Kindle users, it can be downloaded free from Amazon.

I also enjoyed Bernard Cornwell's Grail Quest Series and the follow-up novel "Agincourt".

[Rob DiStefano]

"The White Company" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

The fictional story of a company of English archers during the late 14th century.

selected chapters you\\'ll want to read!

[Ben Maher]

"in no particular order ...

"White company ... Doyle

"Azincourt ... Cornwell

"Robin Hood ... Pyle

"Robin Hood ... retold By R Leeson

"Robin Hood ... McSpadden / Hildebrandt

"Children of Hurin ... Tolkien [ a bit of a stretch but the main character is an archer/hunter

Anything about Robin Hood

Did I say I like Robin Hood .......

"the Longbow Hunters ... by Mike Grell .- Howard Hills best student the Green Arrow dishes it out to baddies ..... with drawings of a green Arrow shooting with ol' Howard himself , great story and dashing artwork ... all straight limb Hill style action .


And, as an aside,  I am ordering a new bow today ........   :p

[dragonheart]

Talking of longbow books, the book that I want in my collection is Sagittarus by Swinehart.  When I was about 15 yoa, Max Drumb taught me to shoot longbows and he had copy of the book.  I used to spend many hours looking at the pictures and reveling over the adventure.  That is a great book.  It just carries such a heafty pricetag nowdays.  There was a magazine he had I think called the Longbow Digest that was awesome.  Max had a custom wood arrow shop and carried traditional bows in his shop behind his home.  Oh how I remember "the smell of cedar".  We used to shoot bumble bees in his garden.  Ever once ina while we would hit one.  He built some awesome arrows called "Drumbsticks".  Max was instructed to shoot by Jerry Hill.  His arrows won many championships, several Howard Hill World   Championships, Texas Longbow, and IBO.  I learned the "Hill" form from Max.  One of the regrets in archery is all of the "straying" I have done from this style.  I feel like I have come full cirlce plan to stay.

[Rik]

Yep, 'Ol Green Arrow even graced the cover of my magazine once. Quite the archer!

[Ben Maher]

Sweet !!!!!!

[Rik]

Ben,

Did you say "New Bow?"

P.S. Those of you who guessed that the broadhead in the photo was a Ribtek were correct-----a 160-grainer, my favorite.

[Rob DiStefano]

rik, you ever get to test out the tusker concorde?

[Rik]

Rob,

I have some Concordes, but I have yet to shoot anything with them.

They have GREAT lines, and look like they would penetrate well.