HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Nate Steen .]

Canopyboy,

most Hills off the rack are very wide on the back side of the grip...that's Craig's standard.  It seems to me that most people prefer a narrower back, around 1/2" wide at most before leather.  This makes it easier to place your hand in the proper position with the back of the grip situated between the first and second joints of your fingers.  Hill style longbow control starts with finger and grip control.

Since bamboo is a natural material, each piece and each bow can vary in density...aka bow weight.  You need to start out heavy and tiller down to your desired weight and just sanding doesn't always do this.  I know Craig suggests just sanding, but I've finished many of his blanks for customers, and they required tillering down to weight.  If I would have just sanded, the bow would have been off tiller and timing, along with weight.  Rule of thumb, tiller down to within 2# of desired weight and then sand to the final weight.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

A few months ago, when I first got my new Redman, I took it to school to show the kids. We did some archery out on the oval, and eventually I flight-shot it. Even though it is a string-follow Hill, it seems to shoot flight just as well as my Black Widows or Silvertips. Anyway, one arrow went up and away, and we lost sight of it at the far end, thinking it had landed in the long grass. We had a bit of a look, but abandoned the search after awhile. Yesterday afternoon (three months later) I strolled out on the oval to have a break from mid-year report writing. The kids at After School Care were playing out there, and a couple of my students casually mentioned that they'd seen an arrow in a tree a few days ago. I knew it must be the one that I'd lost back then. They showed me where it was, gently resting caught-up in some branches, in the darkness of the foliage. We threw sticks to try to get it down, to no avail, then more kids arrived with footballs, which proved to be better projectiles, and in a few minutes, the arrow was down. The nock was slightly faded, but the shaft was straight, and the timber was fine. That arrow has sat there enduring some almighty monsoonal downpours, the heat, and now the dry season cold. And it shot fine. The kids all lined-up, and had a go at shooting, and one rascal even hit the milk bottle. They always get a kick out of seeing me shoot three or four arrows at a time, or shoot using my foot to hold the bow. It was a fun afternoon, and I came away with an extra arrow!

[2treks]

Sounds like a good time Ben. Thas pretty cool that you are shooting with the kids that way.I have a couple of questions for you.
Do you shoot 3or4 arrows on the string same time?
How does the bow like a foot shot? and last
FOOTBALLS: round or pointy?    
Take care Ben
Chuck

[Ben Maher]

Cool story Mate ....

[canopyboy]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Canopyboy,

most Hills off the rack are very wide on the back side of the grip...that's Craig's standard.  It seems to me that most people prefer a narrower back, around 1/2" wide at most before leather.  This makes it easier to place your hand in the proper position with the back of the grip situated between the first and second joints of your fingers.  Hill style longbow control starts with finger and grip control.

Since bamboo is a natural material, each piece and each bow can vary in density...aka bow weight.  You need to start out heavy and tiller down to your desired weight and just sanding doesn't always do this.  I know Craig suggests just sanding, but I've finished many of his blanks for customers, and they required tillering down to weight.  If I would have just sanded, the bow would have been off tiller and timing, along with weight.  Rule of thumb, tiller down to within 2# of desired weight and then sand to the final weight.

Nate,

Yep, that's about where I am right now on my back (1/2").  And you're describing how it's now comfortable for my finger joints to wrap around exactly.

The tiller looks good to me, but I've only ever really worked with self and board bows.  And even them I'm light on experience.  How does one check to make sure for a Hill?  And what about timing?  I have no idea how to check that.

[Nate Steen .]

Canopyboy,

tiller is the same principle no matter what bow material you are using or type of bow.  Timing is something that guys don't pay much attention to, but with a Hill style, the lower limb is usually shorter and recoils at a different rate than the top limb in order to reach brace height at the same time.

The old timers used a tiller board and pulley system to watch the limbs flex and relax in quick motion to see how they returned to brace.  This is also something you can do by pulling the bow barefingered and letting down in a smooth controlled motion, paying attention to the pressure of the string on your fingers.  You must have your fingers in the position that you are shooting (split or 3under) and if the bow is way off timing, you can feel it easily. The string pressure will be greater on the top or bottom finger as you return to brace.  Subtle timing is easier to see if you use a pulley system or mirrors.

[Rik]

Regarding the design of Hill bows, there are two things that make them the bows I hunt with.

(1) The Consistent accuracy. I can equal this accuracy with most well-made recurves, but not with any other longbow design, and I've shot the best. I imagine I could equal it with a 3-piece so-called longbow where longbow-like limbs are bolted to a heavy recurve riser, but that would be, well, not really a longbow at all.

(2) The shorter lower limb, as mentioned by Sunset Hill above. As a guy who hunts from the ground, that shorter lower limb is a huge advantage. I would estimate that 85 to 90 percent of the animals I have killed were shot on steep slopes while I was kneeling. That extra bit of clearance comes in handy, real handy.

[Mudd]

I know very little of design but I do know how they make me feel when I'm shooting them.

I have owned and shot a lot of very good bows in my wonderful journey to find the bow or bows that "just did it" for me.

The Hill and hill style bows as it is turned out has the whole package for me.

Long elegant looking and hits where I'm looking but more importantly to me it's how I feel when I have one in my hands.

Yeah, you can call me an old romantic but I love the same feeling I got as a pup when after watching Robin Hood on tv and then I would head outside to my personal version of Sherwood forest.

Today when I grab one of my bows I am right back in my own Sherwood state of mind. I just love it!

God bless,Mudd

PS: Now you know for sure that I follow dad's advice... "Son! There's no point in being ignorant iffen you don't show it!"..lol

[Steve Clandinin]

Roy,I'm with ya a 1000 percent.Don't get that feeling from any other bow.When I was 7 in 1960 my dads hunting buddy showed me how to shoot.It was a wooden longbow with stringfollow,I fell in love with that bow and that style of shooting.These Hills have taken me back to my roots and I'm enjoying it as much now as I did as a kid.
Kudus to all on here for enhancing us with so much info on these bows and this style of shooting,atip of my Fedora to all of you.

[Greg Skinner]

Interesting discussion about the overweight bows and sanding down to get to desired weight.  The Tembo blank that I did was 61# when I got it from Craig. I wanted finish weight to be about 55#, but it took considerable sanding to finally arrive at 57# and that is where I left it.  I counted sanding strokes as I worked, and checked for string centerline alignment and also checked for about 3/16" difference in tiller between upper and lower limbs, but didn't do anything about checking timing.  I must have done something right, though, because it came out smoother-drawing and with less "thump" than other Hills I have shot that were finished by Craig himself.

I want to do another blank, but after Nate's comments I'm a bit apprehensive about whether I can achieve the same results without knowing more about the tillering process.  Any additional thoughts, Nate?

When I tiller Hill blanks, I use a tiller board, then when it is close I shoot them for feel. I want the limb timing to get to a point where the bow naturally stands dead still on the release.  it comes down to using nothing more than sandpaper to get the timing feel just right.  when all this is done and I got it right, I have a plywood sheet with nails on a line. I line up the string to my exact marks and trace the limbs from fade out to where it meets the string. If everything thing is right the bottom limb will be 1&1/4" or 1&1/2", depending on the bow, shorter and 1/8th closer to the string than the top limb. I will end up with a perfectly shaped 1/8th inch to a point gull wing tracing. If it bulges or the lines cross the bow will not shoot right for me. With every longbow, either tillered my me or others, that I have checked this way, if they shoot right, I get that perfect gull wing.

[Mudd]

Pavan please help me get the mental picture of this.

"a perfectly shaped 1/8th inch to a point gull wing tracing"

My brain apparently doesn't work like a lot of other folks and converts almost all information into word pictures that I either understand or don't and in this case it's a "don't"..lol

It's the 1/8th that's throwing me.

In fact I can't even get a picture. My dense!!

Thanks in advance!

God bless,Mudd

I should have pointed out that the bow gets flipped so the lines are along side each other and that bows designed and tillered for three under the lines will be of equal length and on top of each other. the 1/8th to 3/16th inch is the tiller measurement from the string to the belly of the braced bow at the end of the fade out. the lower limb is one eighth inch less than the top limb. Pm sent Mudward, I have the same problem, the old Madcow shows itself every time my wife starts telling me things.

[dragonheart]

TTT for the best thread on TG!

[Benny Nganabbarru]

G'day Chuck,

Yep, three or four arrows on the string at the same time. The bow doesn't mind the foot shot at all, but Howard did it much better than me. And yes, it was a pointy football, but I can't remember if it was for rugby or AFL. We don't call them footballs if they're round; we call them soccer balls.

Cheers,

Ben

[Greg Skinner]

OK, Pavan, now I am really puzzled about this timing business - and, yes, I'm like Mudd, I can't seem to get a picture of what you are talking about. Could I please get some clarification, too.  Thanks

[Dick in Seattle]

Looks like we need a series of pix of the actual process...

Originally posted by Dick in Seattle:
Looks like we need a series of pix of the actual process...

Yes Sir!
I'm sure there is gold in them thar words...
clueless but intensely interested...LOL
 

[tg2nd]

I have also a question.
Craig offers his bows in different length; i.e. a bow for 50#@26" in length from 62" to 68". How is it done that these bows have their best performance @ 26"? Does it depend only on tillering or have the tapers to be different?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by tg2nd:
I have also a question.
Craig offers his bows in different length; i.e. a bow for 50#@26" in length from 62" to 68". How is it done that these bows have their best performance @ 26"? Does it depend only on tillering or have the tapers to be different?

unlike hybrid r/d longbows american flatbows with backset, straight or bellyset limbs need length to perform smoothly and stably.  

my basic recommendations for the *minimum* hill longbow length for a given shooter's draw length - longer is better for smoothness of draw ...

64"/26", 66"/27", 68"/28", 70"/29"-30", 72"/30"-31"  

tillering is always an issue, based on the above criteria and the shooter's string grip and form.

ymmv.