Stiff carbon w/out heavy weight shaft???

[James Wrenn]

When carbons came out everyone that shot them was getting more foc than in the past with wood or aluminum arrows.Even with the light weight points the foc would be higher.Now I know that more is considered better but personally when you get to the point of having to build your riser out so far you are running out of shelf space I honestly think you are not gaining anything.Doing that to just add more point weight is counter productive when you are already shooting enough weight to kill most anything you most likely will hunt.Sometimes we take stuff other than FOC to the extremes.     jmho

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by James Wrenn:
When carbons came out everyone that shot them was getting more foc than in the past with wood or aluminum arrows.Even with the light weight points the foc would be higher.Now I know that more is considered better but personally when you get to the point of having to build your riser out so far you are running out of shelf space I honestly think you are not gaining anything.Doing that to just add more point weight is counter productive when you are already shooting enough weight to kill most anything you most likely will hunt.Sometimes we take stuff other than FOC to the extremes.      jmho

my 50-55# longbows are all 1/8"+ shy of centershot and my overly low spined 29.5" arrows (ics 500's) have 400 grains up front and no flight issues at all, even without fletching.

the most important part of the arrow/bow match up relationship is you, the shooter.

[Doc Nock]

First, thanks for all the great advice and suggestions by all posters.

Second, special thanks to several for the PM's and kind offers to try varied shafts.

I'll follow up with a over-arching comment to some of Rob's thoughts re: variables. I'm not looking for a formula to put together arrows.  I'm looking to learn what arrows are out there that are lighter in weight while still stiff in spine, yet...durable. I want it ALL! Greedy-gut that I am!    

I am looking for what 90% of you are providing. Input on what durability, combined with spine and overall weight of varied arrows are out there.

I stumbled into GT's many years ago and ended up getting a SWEET deal on 3 doz 5575's I've had untouched for years!

Indeed. Steelhead (eric) also addressed the variables from bow to bow along with Rob's contention of shooter-to-shooter. I've done quite a bit of research (?) with amount of center cut and effect on spine and listened to some whom I trust THEIR research.

Many factors. I have a great set up in my 5575. I don't really want to go over 600 gr. I have now.

I'll be shooting new (to me) longbow limbs for my cheyenne, 45@28 and draw about 47# on them, I'm guessing. Bob tells me they'll spit an arrow with the Carbon/foam core. So I may still be in the same "speed" (relative indicator of performance) as with my current bamboo 48# (50# for me) Recurve limbs.

I like a quiet bow and get goofy to get it. I have become very interested in quiet arrows as well... leading to smaller fletching....which leads to greater FOC to accomodate the smaller fletch... Aayyyeeee!    

It can be a dizzing ride. Which is why I came here to ask the question: What carbon shafts out there are durable, yet stiff & light?

GT5575 (black) run about 8.9 gr/in.  CX Max about 8.2 gr/in. Many of the other suggestions run higher or about the same. You've all given me new ones to research and measure against one another. My GT's are relatively tough. They break, but not easily.

I'm convinced, the more a bow is cut to or past center, the stiffer an arrow spine is required. Makes sense to me. The string is imparting a more direct push and there is no energy spent wraping around the 1/8" shy of center riser. No need for the shaft to be flexible (lower spine/deflection) to deal with the increased paradox.

James, the reason I shimmed out the sideplate was that I learned that the closer to center shot or beyone (Like C-bows)a trad riser is cut, the more critical release becomes and the less forgiving the set up! Ouch! Which is why "they" shoot releases, I guess?  3/16 is a lot past center. It DOES allow a great leeway of tunability, for which I'm grateful, but it does require some effort...and different shafts than I have perhaps!

So I'm striving for a) forgiveness, b)quiet bow and c) quiet arrows. I like weight when shooting the lower poundage to enhance penetration.  At 50# now, and 620 gr.---I'm way above 10gpi.

I know not everyone of us agrees on spine vs. center shot, vs. EFOC etc, I am espousing my opinion--- that for me, with my li'l bit of understanding of physics, I believe an object in motion tries to stay in motion and the more weight, the more that is so...

If uncle "Arty Ritis" is going to affect the draw weight I can manage, and i want to hunt, I'm going to try for a reasonably heavy arrow set up. It is what I believe and believe in. Long heavy bullets in single shot pistols of my past tended to move slower but printed the same elevation and delivered more energy on target...they didn't loose as much energy nor drift as much... so in  my pea-brain, same with an arrow.

If I'm going to shoot for a reasonably heavy 600 gr. arrow in a 47-50# bow, I'm not going to ignore the EFOC stuff when adding weight... and then desiring quiet flight, I lean toward smaller feather stuff...but to do it...I'm going to need to find a stiffer arrow and not so heavy so what weight i add, I can do up front.

Again, thanks for the great offers from various posters who sent PM's. I'm deeply touched.

Some of the arrows mentioned this last go a round, I've not seen in a  while...locally. I'll have to keep an eye out for them or contact some of our sponsors!

Thanks, guys!

[CoilSpring]

Doc,
I've 4 (28") older PSE Carbon Force Hunter, black 300 shafts.  They're .340 spine and 8.6 gpi - similar to the newer x-weave models.  They're incredibly stiff for my 50# FF recurve with 300 grains out front. Shafts are yours to keep and try if you'll pm me your address. 3-rivers brass inserts fit them, so have at it...  How's that for light, stiff, and cheap? Then if you like 'em, order some x-weaves.  Also, GT Vapors are very similar if not identical to GT 55/70's in gpi/spine, but with a slick finish and as durable - same inserts fit both. Dick's sporting goods sold them as Vapor "monster buck" arrows,too.  And yes, Cut-to-Center variances, make BIG difference in spine/tuning.

[James Wrenn]

I now what you mean when dropping weight Doc.Been there,done that.  I agree that a finger shooter can not shoot a full centershot bow.I just don't agree with building out a shelf farther than you have to or running out of room as you posted.While closer to centershot does require a stiffer arrow the arrow has to go through less paradox,straightens out quicker and in my oppionion aids in penitration as well.To me increasing paradox even more just to shoot a certain weight on the front is not really gaining that much in a hunting arrow.My goal is to shoot with the most centershot that works well with a stiff shaft and add the weight it takes to make it tune without having to build out the shelf to use a certain weight.Just my 2 cents of course.

I use a 500 Entrada shaft cut to 28.5 and a 200gn points.Gives me an overall weight of 425gns and a foc near 30%.That is 10gns lb for most of my wood bows and seems to work fine.I honestly think that for me to build out the shelves more just to add more point weight,adding paradox would give me no better setup for the deer I hunt.I think good foc is great but I do think that at times we might be giving up something else if trying to acheive a certain weight or FOC that might be just as important. jmo

[Paul Mattson]

If you are looking for a lite wt shaft Nitro Stinger Yellow's have a deflection of .350 and have a wt of 6.7 gpi.

[Doc Nock]

Paul,

Thank you on the AD's. I had another recommendation for another of their shaft. I'm keep track of all these good suggestions.  

James,
I have to take blame for a "tounge-in-cheek" comment...after living with such a deep cut shelf, coming out TO CENTER makes it look like there isn't any...shelf left      Kinda like driving the expressway and getting off on a backroad and 50mph feels like 20!

You make a good sense argument. I started to shim to get closer TO CENTER because of wanting the most forgiving release under adverse conditions out hunting. I can see an occassional arrow do some whoopty whoop at 20 yrds about every 6th or 7th shot...and especially when tired. So gettign away from that critical point where an arrow "doesn't know which way to paradox" coming off the shelf when it's past center, well...just figured I can do without that.

All a crap shoot till the limbs show up, I get back in shooting shape after no place indoors and outside was too hostile this winter... then start testing all over again to build a new set up.

I've got some GREAT ideas and information on varied arrows from everyone's responses!

[Doc Nock]

I failed to note Coilsprings great offer, my apologies, Tim.

Unfortunately, all who have offered varied shafts to try as has Tim, I'm drawing at least 28 1/2- 28 3/4...I tend to over draw on critters and settle so I ALWAYS want at least 1" extra shaft length to keep from slicing off my digits!      :rolleyes:  

Tim, 28" shafts just won't cut it for this ape-armed ole fart! But thank you and others so much for all these generous offers.

GT 5575 and GT7595 are right around 8.2-8.9 gr/in in standard black.

I even KNOW i have squirreled away some 18 or more GlasShafts (fiberglass) that are cut 29 which equated in that # shaft to be 60# spine. They're now too short since I'm doing more back tension...and they're pretty darned heavy straight up!

With DST now in place, it'll still be daylight and I can find them in storage sometime soon and put them up on the Classifieds...maybe find a few BLACK GT7595's to try or trade someone some 5575's for 6 of the stiffer ones.  

AGain, thanks for the reply, Tim and sorry I missed your kind offer. Mia copa.

[CoilSpring]

No appologies needed Doc, just sorry they're too short for you. I was afraid they might be...
Take care.

[Robert Honaker]

Doc, try the Vapor Jets. Blackhawk made them and I think GT continues to make them now.

I shoot the 4000's. they are a 55/70 shaft and weigh in at like 6grs/in. Very, very light and very tough and consistant.

So light that with a 50gr brass insert and 250gr BH they only come in at around 525grs!

[Doc Nock]

Robert, if they're similar to the GT 5575, then the weight isn't a factor, but spine is the critical issue.

I originally was looking to find a lighter weight, but STIFFER arrow than the 5575.

I just can't get enough front weight on them at my 29.5" arrow length to get what I want...

Sorry for the confusion.  

Current set up is maxed out on point weight for 5575. I need to get a shaft that is stiffer, but I would like to stay around that 600 total grain weight and get 28% FOC.

Not easy when you're cutting shafts 29.5" to bop.