A similar but modified version of my earlier post.
Bowhunting setup: Ashby Style
- Recurve bow (52 lb @ 28 in) —> Bear Supermag 48
- My draw length = 28 in
- broadhead (250 grains) Iron Will wide single bevel left (no bleeders)
- impact collar - Type C (25 grain)
- HIT insert (100 grain)
- Arrow shaft - Easton Carbon Legacy Fred Eichler Edition (340 spine, 30 in * 9.8 grains per inch (GPI) = 294 grains)
- Fletching - left helical (cumulative 9 grains) —> this is an estimate from online research
- Lighted nock (21 grain)
- Total arrow weight = 699 grains
- grains per pound (GPP): 13.44
- FOC = 24.83% (theoretical estimate)
I am fascinated by the heavily weighted, high FOC, maximal penetration approach of Dr. Ed Ashby (even at the expense of speed and trajectory). I will be hunting mostly whitetail < 25 yards. Is this overkill? It seems like the best way to ensure pass-through shots.
I like it. Im shooting #40 560gr arrow. Thats 14gpp
I have been getting pass throughs with arrows ranging from 11-12 GPP from bows of 63-67#. Latest bow a Moosejaw Razorback 60# has not been tested on game yet, but with 625-645 grain arrows tail tapered with 160-190 grain heads seems to be snappy.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Sounds cool - if that is your thing, go for it eh. As long as flight is good they'll hit like freight trains .
I am more of a 9-11 gpp guy.
Quote from: dddavila17 on April 30, 2025, 01:02:34 PM
A similar but modified version of my earlier post.
Bowhunting setup: Ashby Style
- Recurve bow (52 lb @ 28 in) —> Bear Supermag 48
- My draw length = 28 in
- broadhead (250 grains) Iron Will wide single bevel left (no bleeders)
- impact collar - Type C (25 grain)
- HIT insert (100 grain)
- Arrow shaft - Easton Carbon Legacy Fred Eichler Edition (340 spine, 30 in * 9.8 grains per inch (GPI) = 294 grains)
- Fletching - left helical (cumulative 9 grains) —> this is an estimate from online research
- Lighted nock (21 grain)
- Total arrow weight = 699 grains
- grains per pound (GPP): 13.44
- FOC = 24.83% (theoretical estimate)
I am fascinated by the heavily weighted, high FOC, maximal penetration approach of Dr. Ed Ashby (even at the expense of speed and trajectory). I will be hunting mostly whitetail < 25 yards. Is this overkill? It seems like the best way to ensure pass-through shots.
Man that's some heavy stuff right there :scared:
Curious, what distance / range is your sweet spot or personal "limit" I'd guess you could call it? And , how is your trajectory?
Absolutely over kill...That set up will definitely put the arch back into archery for you though.... Good luck
It's a Whitetail deer...it doesn't take much to get a pass through. My self, I would look for a balance.
Yep 100% overkill! But my arrows bare shaft great,cut through the wind and at my 15 yd hunting distance dont drop. Also my bow is dead quiet.
Overkill, ya probably. But I've been shooting 700gr or more for a while and if your shooting a 60# or heavier bow your really not giving up much for that extra punch. Last doe I shot with a 700gr arrow from a 65# bow broke her humerus in the offside. So you have that potential from the heavies. This year I'm using 950+gr arrows from my 65# ELB. Mostly just cuz I wanted to try some hickory arrows and that's just what they turned out to be after turning the shafts and tuning them. And they're fast enough at 145 fps for sub 20 yard shots. If I was gonna shoot out to 25 yards I would probably want an arrow that shoots atleast 165fps as that seems to be where the trajectory at that range starts to flatten out a bit. My opinion is to go the heaviest arrow that gives you a trajectory at your distances your comfortable with.
I hope that helps some
Kyle
This is for those that want to hunt out west, or do. Fred Bear and Glenn St Charles hunted with fiberglass then Easton aluminum arrows with Bear Razorheads after it came out in 1957. Glenn used a Bear Kodiak with dacron string, and draw wt. around 57 lbs, while Fred preferred a heavier weight up to 65# and 75# in Africa. Their arrow wt was mostly 9 - 10 GPI. They were spot and shoot hunters and their range did exceed 20 yds. Fred used to say, the arrow weight and sharp broadhead were critical. I don't recall either men endorsing what Ashby recommend based on his heavy bows, and the buffalo he hunted. Your free to use whatever you want, even if it limits your range, and method of hunting, but in the open country, like the west, why do it? Shoot straight.
My hunting partner doubled lunged a whitetail @ 36 yards last November.
40# Bear takedown recurve
680 grain arrows
Surewood shafts
235 up front.
Range won't be a problem with heavies.
Just something to think about and this is just my take ......... the reason why we impose most of our shot distances on game, our limits some say, is because of trajectory. If you knew your arrow would fly perfectly straight with no arc of trajectory (like a lazer beam), do you think you'd feel comfortable stretching out any distance limit you've imposed on yourself to ensure a solid effective ethical hit? I bet most would! I know there is a window in the middle of being too light and not good for the bow and certainly not optimal for hunting on one end of the scale, and an anvil on a chop stick that hits like a hammer providing you drop it straight down out of the tree stand on the other end of that scale. I believe we can have our cake and eat it too with this. You can have the arrow with some FOC or overall mass weight that is more than suitable for the hunting situation AND not compromise too much if at all, in trajectory. I think the arrow set up that gets you that is 1 the perfect arrow and 2, will kill anything in the woods.....anywhere. I would never push so far as to drastically hamper trajectory. I might add, that reasonable trajectory is much appreciated, when you judge the distance to 19, but it was really 24.
The ash study was not meant for stateside game. If you can't pass a Zwikey Delta four blade through a wightail, you have serious issues with your setup.
I was killing stuff with four blades well before the ashby study came out, so I don't even consider it for what I do here.
He claims three blades are even worse.. I killed this with a Woodsman, three blade....
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If you like the Ashby stuff it kind of defeats the point to choose a short stubby broadhead like you mentioned in the OP.
I think guys get carried away with this stuff. It's like using a sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack.
With that bow, low 50's poundage, lower efficiency bow design for a recurve, hunting whitetails I'd target an arrow around 500-550 grains with a narrower 3 blade, something like a woodsman or a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 inch VPA, something like that. Good balance of weight, trajectory and cutting diameter.
You aren't trying to shoot through a zebra lengthwise. Lots more deer are lost every year to hitting them too far back than from lack of penetration. For too far back the bigger the broadhead the better.
R
Quote from: Ryan Rothhaar on May 09, 2025, 08:35:59 AM
If you like the Ashby stuff it kind of defeats the point to choose a short stubby broadhead like you mentioned in the OP.
I think guys get carried away with this stuff. It's like using a sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack.
With that bow, low 50's poundage, lower efficiency bow design for a recurve, hunting whitetails I'd target an arrow around 500-550 grains with a narrower 3 blade, something like a woodsman or a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 inch VPA, something like that. Good balance of weight, trajectory and cutting diameter.
You aren't trying to shoot through a zebra lengthwise. Lots more deer are lost every year to hitting them too far back than from lack of penetration. For too far back the bigger the broadhead the better.
R
Yes and absolutely the last paragraph!!!!!!!!
Animals step forward way more than they do back.
That fact was loged on Tradgang over twenty years ago. More animals step forward than back.
The Ashby studies have validity but you have to read the entire contents and realize that the conclusions are based on a very specific application. The "Ashby Arrow" (heavy, weight forward, long single bevel broadhead) is for large, heavy boned animals typically found in Africa. Very few animals in North America fit that description. The only time I use an Ashby Arrow is when I'm hunting big bull elk. I know plenty of hunters that have dropped big bulls without an Ashby arrow, but I prefer the extra insurance if I happen to hit bone. You certainly don't need it for smaller animals, especially whitetails. YMMV
Yes, you have to read the whole study. It was applicable to large heavy boned game. Getting arrows flying straight and fast is more important for most North American game. Higher GPP will definitely quiet your bow and that is a bit more critical for close range game. Moose may be the animal that a heavier arrow will help with. Ryan has been having good results with his set up on moose, so there is that.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
The real trick is removing weight to reach higher FOC..less fletchings length..lighter nock..rear tapered shaft..
Quote from: Michpatriot on May 10, 2025, 09:28:01 PM
The real trick is removing weight to reach higher FOC..less fletchings length..lighter nock..rear tapered shaft..
I love shooting wood shafts, but the easiest way to solve that puzzle is carbon shafts, especially with heavier draw weight bows. I tried everything to build an Ashby arrow with wood shafts but ultimately they always ended up too heavy. Carbons are the ticket for that game because their gpi are much less than wood.
The total weight of the arrow is more important than the foc. Removing arrow weight just for foc is ridiculous.
The real trick is to actually go hunting and kill something. :readit:
For whitetails I try for 10 or 11 gpp. For most hogs this works well too. As both Terry and Ryan stated above I'd rather shoot a big broadhead in case i hit too far back and that has worked out really well for me.
Quote from: Terry Green on May 11, 2025, 12:51:10 PM
The total weight of the arrow is more important than the foc. Removing arrow weight just for foc is ridiculous.
The real trick is to actually go hunting and kill something. :readit:
I think what he was eluding to is that you can gain FOC by designing the arrow to be lighter in the rear end and redistributing it to the front.
For numbers sake, 20grs removed from the rear could have the same effect as adding 75grs to the front.
This approach can help you get a high FOC without having a ridiculously heavy arrow. The higher the FOC goes the more point weight you need to add to make the FOC go up. Subtracting a small amount of weight from the rear can have a much greater effect in raising the FOC.
I have made a 1005gr arrow that I shoot from a 70#@28" Border Black Douglas recurve. From memory it has 660gr upfront and a 7" footing of 2020 aluminum shaft. The shaft is an Axis 5mm in 400 spine. The secret is the 7" footing. This allows the use of a light gpp shaft because the dynamic spine is increased dramatically because of the short flexible portion.
I suppose it is a good thing for those that want to make things complicated, as for me I shoot about 500/550 weight arrow with a sharp broad head out of around 50lb bow, tuned well. It has worked for me for 45 years so I like to keep it simple. don't have to do a lot of math to make my arrows. ;) I never even heard of FOC until the last few years,as they say to each their own, and really have no issues with people that want to go through all of that, just not for me. :)
Pappy
The single bevel should produce bone penetration at 650 gn mark. Your FOC, which enhances soft tissue penetration is at the min level where nonlinear penetration gains just start to explode.
You may find the following arrow design for your Super Mag 48 to be considerably more attractive:
BE carnivore 350...29"s...150 gn brass insert...250...21 gn lighted nock...3x4" feathers...12.5 gpp...28.8% EFOC...650 gn total...Note: I have, personally, never encountered the need for impact collars.
In case anyone is wondering where the FOC craze all started.....
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=127087.msg2258505#msg2258505
I predominantly use tail tapered and footed shafts with 160-190 grain points. I find that tapered arrows fly much better for me. The heavier points also add to stability and recovery from paradox is quicker. Don't know about penetration improvement, cause all my arrows end up laying on the ground past the critter.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
To answer the OPs original question, it's overkill. People need to understand that Ashby isn't saying that a person needs 650 grains or more of arrow weight to effectively kill an animal. 650 grains is the heavy bone breaking threshold. If you don't hit heavy bone, anything will work and Ashby himself says this. 650 grains is the "plan B arrow." If things go wrong and you encounter heavy bone due to a poor executed shot or if the animal should move slightly, the 650 grains will up your percentage of a successful kill. That's it.
And FOC, if you increase FOC while lowering the overall arrow weight, that doesn't necessarily increase penetration as you've decreased arrow mass. An increase in FOC, with a well tuned arrow, can help improve arrow flight and help keep the arrow from deflecting when it hits the animal, all of which will aid in penetration, but more arrow mass will always be better than less arrow mass.
With all that said, I myself like my arrows to be around 10 to 11 grains per pound of bow weight and I aim for 20 to 25 percent FOC. I'm shooting around 475 grains with 47 pounds and I'm shooting 577 grains with 53 pounds.
Having read every word of his studies and having been a bowhunter for over a decade, almost exclusively bowhunting, my take home from his studies has been very simple.
- build integrity/durability matters the most, irregardless of the game we hunt because bone is always harder on flimsy parts than flesh and skin
- heavier arrows carry more momentum and penetrate better. This is a good thing for hunting, but only after you hit where you're aiming. Its better on MOST average sized animals like deer to shoot a medium weight arrow that hits true than a heavy arrow to optimize penetration potential on water buffalo
- forward of center weight is generally speaking better than well distributed weight because it helps the arrow stabilize in flight better and penetrate deeper BUT a well tuned setup is worth more than gaining a few % in FOC
- Longer, more acute heads will have more mechanical advantage to get through an animal than wider heads BUT also cut less. Know your game and choose a head well suited to the game you are pursuing. I wouldn't want a 1" 2 blade for a mature feral pig with fat shield that seals up or a black bear...give me a wide 3-blade for them. They aren't thick but their fat makes things harder to track.
All of that said, I couldn't tell you what my arrows weigh or the FOC. I knew at some point when I was building them but at this point I just slap a couple hundred grains of insert up front and a 125 head or do a 225 head with a single 100gr insert and I go hunt. Pass throughs are the norm but I've had some not go through. Despite "internet knowledge" the animals that I have the least amount of pass throughs on are the smallest deer. It's like shooting into a pillow. Id rather hit an older mature animal that stands firm and strong.
Your final two points are right on target, so to speak. Accuracy is most important, but good penetration is critical.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire: