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Author Topic: Increase Draw length  (Read 1822 times)

Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 09:38:47 PM »
25# @28". My initial draw when trying it out was 26 1/2" . Natural ingrained anchor point . When I get the arrows I am going to work on isolating my back muscles , hopefully "feel" the anchor and from there always draw and hold at that point no matter what poundage I end up with. Hopefully between 35-40 lbs.. 30 lbs will probably be my final poundage . But I will see ..
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 10:45:03 AM »
I am now shooting the PSE Razorback 25# recurve along with the smallest diameter
arrows 1000 I have ever seen. So far, it's been good.and fun.The emerging question now is what is my anchor point/ draw length??? I can hold for 4-6 seconds at but at what DL ? Thanks I am anchoring past the corner of my mouth... feel the feathers.

Another question .. what is a "J "draw.??? What does it look like??
I have heard that my "natural"draw length is 26 1/2 ", is it a sin to be using a bow that can be pulled past it's rated capacity? Some bows I hit a wall (stack) others I can pull effortlessly to a draw point say 27" even 28" I d like very much to solve this as it's been troubling me for years. Thanks.  :archer2:
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online McDave

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 12:04:41 PM »
According to this review, the Razorback can safely be drawn to 30”, so I don’t think you’re going to have any problem with that.

https://targetcrazy.com/archery/gear/recurve/pse-razorback-recurve-takedown-bow-review/

Again, it’s not the bow or your strength that determines your draw length.  If you are drawing the bow correctly, using your back muscles, you won’t be able to draw any further than your actual draw length.  If you are drawing the bow incorrectly, using your arm muscles, you can draw a lightweight bow quite a bit further than your actual draw length.  However, maximum accuracy and consistency occurs when you are drawing the bow correctly, using your back muscles.

If you determined that your natural draw length was 26 1/2” by any method other than by drawing a bow correctly to full draw, then it is only an approximation.  Once you determine your actual draw length, it might change slightly due to training, age, bow weight, etc., but probably not more than 1/2” or so.

The J draw is a concept to help you visualize a draw using back muscles.  It is just a concept, not an actual J.  The J is more or less the path your elbow takes when drawing the bow correctly. As you start to draw the bow, your elbow moves back in more or less of a straight line.  As you get close to full draw, your back muscles contract about as much as they can, you can feel your shoulder blade moving toward your spine, and backward movement of the arrow almost comes to a stop. Even though there is little or no movement of the arrow backward, your elbow continues to move around behind the arrow, which is represented by the bottom of the J.  The J shaped draw is a concept like your elbow closing a door behind you; if it helps you to draw the bow correctly, use it.  If it is just confusing, then don’t worry about it.

From previous posts, I gather that you have put a lot of effort into this over many years.  I commend your tenacity, but you may have gone as far as you can on your own.  I’ll bet that an hour with somebody such as Arne, Rod, or Rick would straighten you out in a hurry, so that might be the next thing you should think about doing.
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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 12:21:18 PM »
Dang straight! Where does Arnie reside? I m from TX. I would nothing than to have just 1 hr of his instruction. Thanks!
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online moebow

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 10:34:25 AM »
Star,  I'm about as far away from you as we can get and still be in the USA.  Northern Minnesota, about an hour driving time from the Canadian border.  IF ever up this way, we can get together if you want.

Arne
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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2018, 01:09:13 PM »
Thanks! I will keep that in mind.
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2018, 01:33:00 PM »
I am currently working with a 25# recurve  concentrating onmy draw & anchoring.
Starting to like the recurve.. shooting full draw and holding for 5-6 seconds. My anchor point seems to have moved upwards my cheek bone head straight up. Again , I working close into the target .. my bow arm extending straight to the target the grip is
The "V "of my thumb and forefinger. Very easy with  low poundage. I will be submitting another video trailer latter to review and share.
I am thinking after all is done that my final weight will be in the mid to low thirties at my proper DL. I will soon see.Thanks.
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2018, 10:51:04 AM »
I am shooting with the 25# recurve and skinny carbons . I feel very comfortable drawing & holding at full draw 27". My plan is to fully imprint/ reprogram to that Dl and hold at least 5-10 seconds( longer?)
This morning I shot 5 rounds and the arrows keep landing on the right side of the target  bullseye .Try as I did to align the sight window to the center they flew right of the center by sometimes 10" Am I gripping the bow wrong or is my elbow alignment incomplete? Or the arrows might be too weak for my draw
My son is coming sometime this week and I am gonna get a movie made. I am flummoxed!  :banghead:
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online moebow

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2018, 11:01:30 AM »
Yep!! Video time.  Arrows hitting to the right could be MANY things.  Many will be quick to suggest spine but that is actually the least probable cause.  SOMETHING in your shot execution is MOST LIKELY the reason.  But at this time, we really need to see not just speculate on descriptions.

Arne
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4 James Berry bows
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Online McDave

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2018, 08:14:26 PM »
How long you hold at full draw is up to you. Many good shooters snap shoot, meaning they release as soon as they reach full draw. Others hold and aim. In our style of shooting, most people who hold and aim hold for about 2 seconds at full draw. It is hard for me to imagine how you could be very effective hunting if you needed to hold for 5 seconds. However, holding for long periods can be an effective strength building exercise.

What is essential is coming to full draw and anchoring, every time you shoot.
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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2018, 08:57:39 AM »
 
Hope this works.
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online moebow

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2018, 09:57:03 AM »
I see nothing here that really leaps out at me to cause your right hits.  There are some areas I'd critique from an execution stand point but again, nothing that really stands out as a cause of your problem.  I see you are shooting that bow off the shelf, but the Sage is a very center cut bow. Have you tried building out the strike plate a little??  Add a layer or two of something to move the vertical (strike plate) surface to the left and see what happens.

Set the bow up so you can stand behind it and visually line up the string with the center of the limbs with an arrow nocked, on the shelf and against the strike plate.  With an arrow nocked, the position of the point should appear to be JUST to the left of the string. IF it (the point) is to the right or centered on the string, build that strike plate out (thicker) to get that point to the left of the string line.  See if that helps and let us know.

Arne
11 H Hill bows
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4 James Berry bows
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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2018, 10:11:13 AM »
Is my elbow aligned? How about the chest expansion? Release ok?
I see that the point disappears behind the riser indicating a 28" draw
Should I discount that as I am working with 25# now? My biggest concern are the shoulder/ back mechanics . I am trying to reprogram and reset the draw. No more short drawing.
The bow is a PSE Heritage . Thanks.
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online McDave

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2018, 10:29:22 AM »
I’ve read enough of Arne’s critiques to know that he can see things most of us can’t.  Based on his comments, and my own observations, you seem to be on the right path.

I can’t tell if you’re using the PSE Razorback arrows, but the fletching looks the same.  These are really thin arrows, and Arne’s comment on maybe needing some strike plate buildout could be on point.  Just add enough thick leather so that the thin arrows are centered about where regular sized arrows would be centered.

I remember that you are an ASL shooter.  Whenever I try shooting an ASL, my arrows go way left.  Whenever one of my ASL shooting buddies tries to shoot a cut past center bow, their arrows go way right.  One of them likes to shoot both, and builds out the strike plates of his cut past center bows to a ridiculous degree to get his arrows to hit the center.  I’ve just decided I have to pick one or the other, and not try to shoot both.  If you plan to continue to shoot ASL’s, you may just have to accept this, and may even have some trouble with shooting to the left when you switch back.  It’s just a mental adjustment; nothing to do with your form or the bow.
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Online moebow

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2018, 10:46:29 AM »
Is my elbow aligned? How about the chest expansion? Release ok?
I see that the point disappears behind the riser indicating a 28" draw
Should I discount that as I am working with 25# now? My biggest concern are the shoulder/ back mechanics . I am trying to reprogram and reset the draw. No more short drawing.
The bow is a PSE Heritage . Thanks.

You have a very static release, which while not necessarily "wrong" (many shoot very well with it!!) I am not a fan.  IMO a shooter cannot REALLY expand while still maintaining that string hand static (non moving) on the face.  In order to keep the hand from moving, a shooter must flex muscles in the front of the body to stop movement.  Doing that either kills or at least neutralizes back tension, kind of making it ineffective.  AGAIN! MY opinion and many really do shoot well with a static release!

I'll point out though the "shock wave" that you can see running through your body during the release.  That is caused by stopping the string hand from moving and really is an unnecessary reaction to the shot.

So to answer your questions directly; elbow OK at full draw, no chest expansion, release marginal due to the static nature.  You MAY or MAY NOT be using BT but it looks like it is negated at the point of release.

All this is based on my way of teaching and shooting. There other very legitimate techniques but they don't generally "play well together" or in a mix and match conglomeration.

Arne
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2018, 11:00:18 AM »
It sounds like I need to "pull through" the draw ? Sometimes I can feel the shoulders swing back towards my back and my chest expands which is good right?
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online moebow

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2018, 11:54:54 AM »
In my book, that's what you want to do.  The release is caused by further activation of the (string) shoulder , not the hand so then, when the string goes and the bow weight is gone, your natural reaction is for that string hand to move straight back along the cheek.  Like you are in a tug of war with the string and then when suddenly gone, the string side naturally recoils back.

Arne
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

Online McDave

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2018, 08:48:26 PM »
There are two styles of releasing the arrow we generally see in the United States: the dynamic release and the static release.  The style more often taught is the dynamic release, which is the style used by Arne and Rod Jenkins.  Probably more people end up using this style than the static release, which is the style I use and Rick Welch uses.  Hopefully the reason more people end up using the dynamic release is because it works better for them, and not because they didn't ever learn the static release, or because they were convinced the dynamic release is the “right” way to shoot.  Because the only reasonable way to make a choice is what works best for you.  Biomechanical efficiency sounds logical, but what really matters is what puts arrows in the target.  A bumblebee logically should not be able to fly, but it does.

I started archery late in life after I got too old to rockclimb.  I had the luxury of being able to read and watch a lot of videos, wanted to pick the best way I could to learn to shoot the traditional bow.  I spent a lot of time learning and practicing the dynamic release before I met Rick Welch.  While Rick is a great guy, the ONLY reason I switched to the static release is because I shot better that way.

I agree with 99% of what Arne says, and believe he was very fair in his evaluation of the two styles.  I agree 100% with his statement that the two don't mix well together.  If I had listened and applied everything Rick told me in the first lesson, I probably wouldn't have had to take two more.  Most of the time spent in the two other lessons was Rick getting me to unlearn parts of the dynamic release I was trying to mix with the static release, and to relearn parts of the static release that I had glossed over.  Arne's statement that it is necessary to lock off the back muscles at the end of the draw when using the static release is correct; I don't think most dynamic release shooters know that, and many people who quit using the static release probably didn't learn that.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 09:46:42 PM by McDave »
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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2018, 09:50:41 PM »
My question now is how do I counteract the "shockwave" after the release
which supposedly neutralizes the back tension that I am slowly acquiring ??
Thanks.
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online McDave

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2018, 10:16:02 PM »
This is a video of Rick shooting in his prime:



You can see that he doesn't have any shockwave.

For a good example of shooting with a dynamic release, see any of Arne's vídeos, or Rod Jenkins section of vol 3 of Masters of the Bare Bow.

Whether because it comes naturally to you or because you were taught that way, you seem to have a good start on the static release.  Whether you continue that way or not is up to you.  Either way is a fine way to shoot.
TGMM Family of the Bow

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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2018, 10:37:13 PM »
Wow! that group of arrows he shot is like a cluster of hornets packed in their nest. Un believable....that is what I d like to see in my own shooting well, a fraction of that anyways. How do I get tighter groups?
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online McDave

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2018, 11:13:15 PM »
Rick is totally self taught, never had a lesson in his life, and had a body strong enough to stand up to shooting many hundreds of arrows every day when he was training.

I don't think either one of us can do that, so we have to find a different way.  We weren't born with the genes to be a Tom Brady or a Rick Welch.  Face it, you or I will probably never stack 5 arrows into a target at that distance that are all close to touching each other.  But what we can both do is learn to improve.  You and I are about the same age with the same capabilities (or lack thereof).  If you accept a discipline, whether Rick's or Rod's or Arne's, and practice it faithfully every day, you will get to the point where your friends no longer congratulate you on bullseyes, because you make them too often to be worth commenting on.

The thing that makes Rick or Tom special is their ability to be aware, on a physical level, of what their bodies are doing.  You mentioned that you were becoming aware of your back muscles.  What if you started at that level, and were able to expand your awareness by a factor of 100 or 1,000?  Just like you are beginning to be aware of your back muscles where you weren't aware before, you can learn to be aware of all the other things that are important in your shot.  You do this by turning off the analytical part of your mind (the part that thinks in words) and focusing on the part of your mind that feels things.  It is one thing to be born with these capabilities, but it is just as much fun to learn to use them, even if we never reach the level of those who were born with them, because you can improve more than you ever dreamed possible.
TGMM Family of the Bow

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Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2018, 11:03:51 AM »
Yes it is fun to learn through experience.. I am still wondering why I got bows built to 26" draw. I am now pulling a youth recurve 25# at 28" and I know that once I go up in weight that my DL will decrease . Should I take the present Dl with a grain of salt and wait til i up my poundage to 35# ? What is important to me is the back muscle isolation and feeling the lock of my drawing elbow as I reach full draw. I have been studying the videos Annie and Rick Welch who has the static release you speak of. The "rotational draw" is still a mystery .
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

Online moebow

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2018, 11:23:42 AM »
"... I know that once I go up in weight that my DL will decrease..."

It shouldn't!!  But for many, when they are just using muscle to pull the bow back, they can't really set or find a consistent draw length and then it MAY change with bow weight. Even when your hand is on the same place on your face, different weights will tend to make you collapse your shoulders or arm position making the draw length SEEM to change.  That's why I like the rotational draw and bone on bone structure for the archery shot.  If the bones get lined up, your draw length can NOT change.

You asked earlier about how to reduce the "shock wave" at your release.  That is a function of evening out the forces applied to your body between your bow hand and string hand and through the bones. It is really a RESULT of form and shot execution and not something that you can specifically address directly.

The rotational draw is pretty easy to learn when working with someone that knows what it is but fairly difficult when trying to learn it on your own.  Besides my videos, you may want to check out a lesson I gave a guy. It is posted on DIY sportsman.  Another is found on Archery 101.  All on You Tube. AND there are others.

Arne
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

Offline starshooter

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Re: Increase Draw length
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2018, 10:59:48 AM »
Terrible shooting this morning.. I took some rear view videos along with back side videos.. they show no back / shoulder contractions. And the the chest expansion is noticeably absent. I won’t trouble you with needless vids but I am discouraged, I am not overbowed and I am trying to establish the rear elbow at full draw and release. Bad day.  :deadhorse:
64” Howard Hill “Redman”  46” @26”
66” Jet Archery “Jaguar” 42#@ 26”
52” Java Man “Helms Deep”  41#@ 26”

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