INFO: Trad Archery for Bowhunters



Author Topic: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......  (Read 6692 times)

Offline the Ferret

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2005, 07:50:00 AM »
Lennie try this experiment. Put one of your bows on the tiller tree. Take a 10" slat of wood and lay it centered on the back of the bow's handle. Now work the bow with a tiller string and see if you don't get movement thru your fades up to your handle. A gap will open up under the 10" slat if the fades are working. I use this to check all bows that i make to see if I am getting movement far enough into the fade. I would be real suprised if you are not getting movement into that area. If you are not, you should.
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Online George Tsoukalas

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2755
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2005, 07:53:00 AM »
RB, the bend in the handle  design has put more  meat on the table over the millenia than any other design combined including the glass and compound bows.  I used to think that it would yield more handshock. Brad Smith set me straight on that. When properly tillered it won't. It's also the easiest for the beginner  to get a first bow. It's also the easiest to make with stone tools. Economy of effort is a prime anthroplogical term. The ancients aren't gonna spend 1 year making a horn bow to hunt deer at 15 yards. Too much effort-no need for  it. The 21st century selfbowyer has preferences in bows that are sometimes based on other reasons besides putting meat on the table with as little effort as possible and aesthetics are chief among them. My point is don't apologize for liking and making a simple bend in the handle bow. Jawge

Offline the Ferret

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2005, 08:01:00 AM »
Jawge I met Roy at Kyboys stump shoot. A real knowledgable fella especially when it comes to flint knapping. I saw his first bow there, a red oak board bow. Very well made, good tiller. His goal is to make a bow with stone tools, knap his own head, harvest arrow shoots and make the arrow. Totally primitive. Bendy handled bows are in his future. I believe he is building his knowledge base now on bow dynamics before plunging head first into this bottomless pit of bowyery. Poor guy. LOL
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Offline Dano

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2660
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2005, 08:07:00 AM »
:bigsmyl:  Mickey, you can remember Roy when he was sane, huh.
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green

Offline the Ferret

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2005, 08:13:00 AM »
LOL yep but he's walking on very thin ice dano..the more questions, the thinner the ice..been there, fell through LOL
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Offline Adam Keiper

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 264
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2005, 08:23:00 AM »
(1) Osage - Because it's forgiving, durable, moisture resistant stuff that can take most of what I can throw at it.  I don't want just any osage.  I want the dead straight, blemish free, really dense, dark orange stuff with 1/8" rings and super thin early wood.  (Can all that exist in one stave?)
(2) NTN length - Somewhere between 60" and 62".  I like 60" for hunting in trees and from brush blinds, but 62" bows draw smoother.  Not positive I can shoot the longer one a whole lot more accurately, though.  Heck with it, we're hunting...60".  My weight would be 62# @ 25".
(3) Handle design: Rigid bulbous
(4) Handle length: 4" long x 1-3/8" deep x 7/8" wide, or a smidge above at the pass...let's call it 29/32".
(5) fade length: 1-3/8".  I like the limb bending into the fade a little as well.  I've got it right when I can see the grip rise up off the tillering tree at full draw.
(6) Limb design: Full width to 8", tapering in a convex arc to 15/32" wide tips.  (I like 13/32" to 7/16" widths when using overlays, but a little wider if I don't use them.  I'm not using them here, though.)
(7) Limb width at fade: 1-1/2".
(8) Limb length: Upper limb 1-3/8" longer than the lower.
(9) Belly type: Healthy radius, because I think it's somewhat tougher than flat w/ fairly square edges and 'cause I just like it.
(10) Backing: None, though I usually like snakeskins.  Don't want the glue line.  I'll burnish the back heavily instead.
(11) Rest type: Glued leather.
(12) Overlays: Again, I usually add them, but if I've only got one bow for 5 years, I don't want the liability (even if it's small) of a glue line.
(13) Profile: Slight unbraced reflex
(14) Finish: Thunderbird Endurance Epoxy
(15) Handle Covering: Stitched leather sealed with melted paraffin.  Leather to provide "some" vibration dampening and texture for a solid grip, and to serve as a reference to hand placement.  Paraffin to keep moisture out of it.
(16) String type and material: Flemish Dyna 97, 14 strands with 4 extra strands braided into each loop. (Only 2 extra strands if I was using overlays.)  Nice string material.  Durable, no stretch, lowest hand shock, speedy.

Offline Dano

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2660
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2005, 08:23:00 AM »
:bigsmyl:  The water's fine come on in. Mickey I've enjoyed this post, great conversation.  :thumbsup:  How's your back?
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green

Offline RB

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2005, 08:53:00 AM »
Thanks Jawge and Mickey. I've learned volumes in the past 2 months from you two guys.

Jawge, on the subject of handshock, my red oak board bow is your 'slightly stiffened handle' option and only has a simply leather lacing wrapped handle. Five guys shot it yesterday with a rose shoot arrow and not one mentioned that they felt any jolts. As I was telling Mickey via email, if I nock and release correctly, I only feel a soft push when the arrow releases. Don't really feel anything, tell you the truth. Delightful little bow.

I'm not advocating anything here in view of theme of this thread (ultimate bow) but I got off onto this out of curiosity over the preference for stiffened handles. BTW, the rose shoot took dead-on 12 yrd impacts with 5/8ths plywood repeatedly and held up. Cracked but never busted. 2 shots completely penetrated  the plywood. Multiple shots, same arrow.
After ~400 shots, the bow still has no back or belly damage, and has 1.5 inches string follow. Good learning experience for me so I can go to the next level. Yeah...some yella wood.

Offline trashwood

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2005, 08:58:00 AM »
RB - I am a bendy habdle bowyer.  That is all I build.  George and Mickey wrote a fine explaination of bendy handle bows in todays bowhunting.  

A point that ya need to keep in mind is that there there is no handle really.  we are used to and like the fact that on a stiff handle bow there is supim to "hold" onto.  a nice hand filling grip.  On a true bendy handle there ain't no hand filling grip.  there is hardly a grip at all.  this might take wome getting used to.  There is no locator, no dish to get your hand into the exact same place ever time.  

Since the bendy bows are thin thru the grip it is harder to fashion an arrow rest.

all the above withstanding I fell in love with 'em skinny, thin, bendy sticks.  ya can build them easily with a "box of rocks", or a pocket knife.  They don't take a shop full of tools.

When ya add the simplicity of the bow to tghe facts in George's post the abo bows speak to me.  

Now the girp does have some plus sides to it.  the bow talks to you thru the grip.  Ya soon learn to feel with your bow hand what the bow is say.  ya know when your at full draw from your anchor and your bow hand.

As  for hand shock - I can't tell that there is any more than a stiff handle handle.  In fact I have felt a lot more hand shock from some stiff handle than I have ever felt in any bendy handle.  On the other hand I don't build 66" bendy handle.  I liek to build them at twice the draw lenght plus 2".

rusty

Offline Randy Morin

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1236
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2005, 09:02:00 AM »
Awesome thread!  Thanks Ferret.  I finally decided on a Hickory board the other day (my first) and roughed out two bows.  First one is Tim Bakers recently posted bendy handle and the second is Ferrets design from his how to web-site.  I started tillering the first bow with a slach string yesterday and I think I need to brace it a few inches now.  Be nice to have a teacher right about now standing over my shoulder showing me "the way". Or at least "a way".  If any of you masters has a second I would love to try and ask one question.  I'm satisfied with my "top view" looks but not with my "profile looks".  Since I roughed it out I keep looking at the transition area at mid limb (thickness) and even though I cut it out on a bandsaw following the lines correctly it looks to me like a weak spot where the steeper thickness taper coming from the handle meets the more flatter taper going to the tips.  What should this area look like when you site down your bow limb?  I know it shouldnt be a sharp angled transition but a strait taper all the way to the fades is impossible too. I hope this makes atleast a little sense.  I should be gettin after it this evening.  Oh yeah and how does Tim Baker complete a shooter bow in under 10 minutes?!!!!. Reading that was discouraging.  Thank You All.  Randy.   :bigsmyl:

Offline trashwood

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2005, 09:03:00 AM »
BTW that twice the draw plus 2" is out of Yellar Rose of Texas bodark of course  :)

rusty

Offline DCM

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 441
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2005, 09:12:00 AM »
Randy, being able to make a bow in 10 minutes is simply a matter of being intimately familiar with one's material and tools, like a good piece of lumber and a bandsaw.  It turns out of you can cut it close enough to the shape of a finished bow, it is a finished bow.  On a more practical note, after you've made and studied wood bows for a while, you can just about take a Ferrier's rasp and make a bow already floor tillered without ever trying it.  I just run my fingers down the limb judging the thickness, and eyeball the rest like limb width and stuff.  It's amazing how aacurate this intuition becomes.

Offline Ray

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 372
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2005, 09:28:00 AM »
Excellent post,just read the whole thing(3cups of coffee)worth.

Offline clintopher

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 169
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2005, 09:42:00 AM »
Dag 'on Adam.  I don't have a pencil sharp enough to mark 1/32.  :notworthy:  

Clint

Offline the Ferret

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2005, 09:59:00 AM »
Randy basically put there should never be ANYTHING abrupt on a bow, not an area where one gets rapidly or abruptly thicker than the next, not an edge anywhere, not in the string grooves,not on the tips nowhere.... all wood should flow and be rounded. Any hard edge or abrubt change is either a weak spot, a place where a splinter can lift, or a place that can cut a string. Smooth and round, ebb and flow

Here is a pic of some handle types..the 2 on the left are bend thru the handle designs, barely thicker than the limb itself, the 2 middle ones are semi bendy handled, not thin enough to bend throughout but thin enough to give a little at full draw, and the 2 on the right are rigid handles, too thick to bend. Notice there are no abrubt changes or sharp edges anywhere. Ebb and flow

 
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Online George Tsoukalas

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2755
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2005, 10:20:00 AM »
RB, that design bow you made is about as good as it gets. I'm making one for Brad with the same design. Simple and reliable. Doubt if it will break speed records but it will get the job done. Glad you made a shooter. Nice feeling isn't it? You'll be using stone tools on bonearrers before you know it. Thank you for the kind words. Jawge

Offline John Nail

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 740
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2005, 10:37:00 AM »
Pretty much the R/D bamboo backed Osage design that Dean Torges perfected, but since you added the caveat that it was the ONLY bow I could hunt with for the next 5 years, I would make it out of at least three laminations of osage, taking it out of the strict "selfbow" catagory. 66"NTN around 55lbs@28" with a crowned shelf, slight locator grip leather covered. Sealed with 10 thin coats of wipe on Poly, and then waxed.
I'd hunt with it rain or shine.
Is it too late to be what I could have been?

Offline the Ferret

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3233
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2005, 11:09:00 AM »
Well John the thread title does say Ultimate Wooden bow and not selfbow because selfbow only would be too limiting in scope excluding lots of backings and overlays I suppose, so your bow fits right in, although as Adam said not sure that if you really needed to depend on something over a number of years that you'd want that many glue lines, points of possible failure. Even Dean has admitted that for durabiltity a one piece wooden bow has the edge over a laminated bow and if he could only pick one it would be a selfbow. Interesting huh?

I am curious though...why 3 laminations of osage? What advantages do you see having multiple layers of wood and which direction or cuts of grain would you use?
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Offline trashwood

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2005, 11:43:00 AM »
Hmmmm I'm beginning to understand why it is that when to bowhunting bowyers put there brains together ya get less the half the sum of the total brains.  :)

With my half wit brain and wood working skills less than a trained monkey I hve found it easy to make a nice quick BBO but a bit harder to make the bamboo hold together thru very hard use.  I'm sure it is my lack of knowledge and skill using bamboo.....but I never said I was a bowyer.  

I shot a lot and hunt quite a bit.  My 5 year bow is got to be solid as a rock.  that is why I didn't back it with anything but air.  I have found with out a doubt that Mother nature backs a bow with bodark much better than I can back a bow with anything else (well maybe not glass)

rusty

Offline Homan

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 7
Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2005, 12:06:00 PM »
I've had bamboo lift a splinter off a node after it got knocked on a rock, so I agree with you Rusty.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2020 ~ Trad Gang.com ©