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Author Topic: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?  (Read 1859 times)

Offline beleg

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Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« on: July 02, 2011, 09:36:00 AM »
Hi,
According to Ashby reports (if I read them right), arrows heavier than 630 grains penetrate bone more frequently than lighter arrows.
Do you found the same on hogs shield penetration?
Thanks
Martin

Offline piggy

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2011, 03:30:00 AM »
I use a 650grn arrow out of a 58# @ 28" widow, a 3:1 broadhead, single bevel have shot plenty of hogs and never had an issue with penetration.

Offline AKCrazyhorse

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2011, 11:51:00 AM »
I believe the heavy bone threshold is actually 650 grains.  I even recieved a pm from the Doc stating that the evidence is so overwhelming (to him) that personally he won't hunt with any arrow under 650 grains.  His most recent studies are showing promising results with arrows slightly below this threshold but with FOC % above 30.

Offline AKCrazyhorse

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2011, 02:07:00 PM »
found the text I was quoting from 2008 update #6

"Regardless of the type of broadhead tested, the breaching rate for heavy bone has consistently shown an abrupt increase when arrow mass is above 650 grains. The degree of FOC an arrow carries has shown no effect on the Heavy Bone Threshold. For
breaching heavy bone arrow mass trumps arrow FOC.  However, once a heavy bone is breached (or if no heavy bone is hit), the higher a given arrow's FOC the greater the average outcome penetration."

Offline beleg

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 03:09:00 PM »
Thank you very much.
I just want some confirmation on other game.
Thanks
Martin

Offline JimB

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 10:14:00 PM »
Remember,the heavy bone threshold is about breaching HEAVY bone.A hog shield isn't bone and I don't think it will react the same.A heavy mass arrow and all the other stuff should help but I don't think the heavy bone threshold has a bearing.If I'm wrong,I hope the good doctor will see this and chime in.Personally,if I were hunting hogs,I would gravitate toward arrows at least that heavy,regardless,for the momentum.

Offline Bjorn

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2011, 12:35:00 AM »
I shoot a 600-630 gn arrow from my 50# ACS The shield is less of a problem hunting from the ground where the angles are more to your advantage.

Offline SlowBowke

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2011, 07:38:00 AM »
Just FYI, Doc Ashby has moved to a remote location and I do not believe he has internet nor phone or if he will have it.

He DOES have options at a library when he is able to get to town (sounds like it may be a ways away?)

I've never seen a wild hog,let alone had chance to shoot one,  lol.

I will say though, something magical(???) seems to happen on arrow weights 625 and up.....for me anyway.  675, regardless of bow weight....just gives me the confidence I prefer to have. Dont NEED it on deer but......sure dont HURT! Isnt a bone on a deer Im afraid of hitting.

Did see online where IN is taking measures to stop the spread of wild hogs so evidently there are some to be found in the Southern part of the state.  ROAD TRIP? lol

Speaking of 3 to 1 heads, I had never seen a tuffhead before till online yesterday. Just a heads up. (tuffhead.com gets you there). Pricey as many are.

Kinda like the sweetlands Im looking for. Just hope I dont need a LOT of em!! LOL

and where ARE those hog "hero photos"? geez guys!

God Bless
"Beauty is in the eye of the BOWholder" God Bless!!

Offline swampthing

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2011, 09:46:00 AM »
The shield is NOT where you want to hit, though a lot of times that's all you got so in the heat of the moment you take it.... you take it... and here in lies the problem. Getting through a "tough" one, not to be confused with lesser pigs, is not as easy as "physics" would imply. 705g, 24% FOC, carbon shafting, 100g brass insert, 100g premium broadhead adaptors, 180g modified grizzly's sharpened with KME sharpener system, bow was 56# Hill. Arrows were bareshaft planing method tuned to 30yds. They, and I mean 4 of them, would not penetrate the shield regardless of the angle! Was able to slow the pig down a bit with the pincusion hits. Got very aggravated and reverted to head shots. These 2 girls, yes shielded almost hermapherdite like hogs had shields, both of them required a very, very, very, hard and forcefull thrusts with my Ka Bar, very disheartening when your first attempt on a wounded hog does not go in, talking knife attempt now on wounded hogs because I was out of arrows at this point, and you have to put some weight into it just to penetrate the shield  that is very present. Now some will attempt to say at this point that I was "aiming" for the wrong spot, I will finish by saying this, when I took the knife out I heard the lungs exhale through the hole.
  Funny twist the biggest pig I've taken was with 580g shaft from a 50# Hill, after 3 high hits that did not go deeper than 4-5" like on the other 2 I just wrote about, 1 went right in the elbow/shoulder crease, that shaft fell out the other side, pig went 15-yds and expired. That shield was like a piece of corn bread.
  Pin point accuracy on huge pigs, overwhelming horsepower, or Lincoln Logs for arrows. Decisions decisions. Tried a Hickory shaft also with a Griz 190, just as horrible when a bad hit happens. If I was going to do it today, I would just use a 55# bow and 500g arrows, only taking shots at broadside angles and at the "crease." Trying to break on down with logs has proved to be a wastefull battle over my way. Maybe 75# would make a differnce by getting the momentum up......

Online Terry Green

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 12:32:00 PM »
Based on some of the shield comments....I think this info may help.

I don't know about all the smevel bevel stuff...I use 4 blades on most of my hog kills, including my two biggest  a shielded boar and a shielded sow over 300#s....my thickest shielded boar was killed with a WIDE 2 blade.  My biggest boar to date was passed through with a 4 blade.  So, multi blade heads or wide 2 blades....out of 580-630 grain arrows...from bow weights of 60-70#s...and I do NOT have penetration issues.  Base your likely results on YOUR set up.

There is a LOT of MISINFORMATION on hog shields and 'how not to shoot them in the shield'....well, in some cases...good luck on trying to shoot one and NOT hit the shield.


HOGS: These shot placement pics are based on broadside animals, so take into consideration if the animal is quartering where to aim to cross through the middle of the animals vitals with the greatest margin of error.


Hog vitals are a bit more tricky as they are angled up a bit as they go back...the same double lung shot on a deer could result in a gut shot on a hog.

Low and tight is good...low and back aint...the same shot low and back(yellow circle) would double lung if it was high and back(pink circle).....so again I aim for the middle right over the elbow for the greatest margin of error on a broadside shot (orange circle).

                               

I quit shooting hogs 'low and tight' after I lost one due to it being 3 inches back.  I now aim as I suggested above(orange circle).

Same low and back on the deer would kill it(orange circle)....

                             

                     

Again...Low and tight is good...low and back aint...the same shot low and back(yellow circle) would double lung if it was high and back(orange circle).....so again I aim for the middle right over the elbow for the greatest margin of error on a broadside shot.
                     

In this pic....the PINK circle gives you the greatest margin of error.  
                     
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 Shield Hardness and Location VIDEO - Click Here

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I've seen this posted for years on web sites...

"I like to shoot them quartering away to avoid the shield".

I've tried to explain that this is not the case on a shielded boar....So at Solana I got pics of Michael's boar to add to the shot placements thread sticked at the top, so they can do the talking.  

This is a pic of a shielded boar and the location of just how far back the shield goes and that you are not going to avoid the shield by shooting quartering away unless you shoot behind the rib cage, and that is a dicey shot.

               

             

               

Also, if you do shoot quartering away, your are actually increasing the thickness of the shield you have to pass through because you are making the shield thicker by the quartering away angle.

I am not condemning a quartering away shot with this post, I've shot plenty that way.  I'm  just making folks aware that you are not going to avoid the shield.....unless of course you shoot that little soft pocked in the clip posted on the shot placement thread...and that soft spot can be shot broadside as well.

 And even MORE...CLICK HERE

Not only have you got to get through the shield, but sometimes dirt/mud clots....and those will rob a lot of energy before even touching the hide.
I like running 600 grain arrows with 4 Blade heads through animals with 60# + Bows!!!!!!

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Online Terry Green

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 01:12:00 PM »
This was Michael Langahand's boar from Solana, and a PRIME example of ALL that you might  encounter.

       

The yellow outline is the shielded area...YES, it went that far back on that hog.  The red circle is 'the soft pocket'...and as you can see it is not that large.  So, you are bound to hit shield if you are off your mark just a tad, or the hog takes a step like they often do while the arrow is in mid flight....AND!, Note the mud cakes in several areas that you might also hit.
I like running 600 grain arrows with 4 Blade heads through animals with 60# + Bows!!!!!!

tarz@tradgang.com

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Offline Troy Breeding

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2011, 04:51:00 PM »
Terry,

Agree with 100% about working it out with your own equipment. Several years ago I killed a 300# sow that was shielded. Yes, the shot was close (5-7 yards). She was bayed up in a creek by dogs. Still, I put a 600gr arrow with a 135gr magnus (1.5" wide) thru both shields and shoulder blades. Arrow was sticking out the off side about 4". The hardest to all of it was pulling the arrow out after we got her out of the creek. Had to pull it thru from the off side. Broadhead wouldn't go back thru it's own hole.

Troy

Offline JamesV

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2011, 06:16:00 PM »
Another problem with arrows and hogs is, if the hog is covered in dried mud and coarse hair the broadhead will be dulled before it gets to the vitals.
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Offline wtpops

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 06:33:00 PM »
100% with Terry on this. Ive put down a few hogs in my day and learned quick that center mass above the elbow will put down a hog in short order
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Offline beendare

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 07:15:00 PM »
Old thread but just saw this. That pic in Terry's last post is the exception ,IME. I did hog depredation for years and then shot over 100 hogs with an arrow and saw very few with the shield extending that far back. I saw plenty with 2" thick right around the shoulders and even down the leg. Had a few with a heavy shield that when flipped on their backs seemed closer to a turtle.

 All of my bow shot hogs were with a compound [so far!]and the only problems I had were on a few that had been caked with heavy mud and the short bladed BH's I was using must have dulled on impact. Just beat up the inside of the hog instead of slicing. I switched from the short heads soon after and never had an issue. The longer slope of the trad heads don't have that hide compression problem.

 I like a quartering away shot and would always prefer a lower shot to a higher one.

In regards to heavy bone- say the leg bone on a 250# hog, I wouldn't count on ANY arrow that will break through that and still kill the hog.
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Online Terry Green

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 09:36:00 AM »
Bruce....I've killed 4 like that.  And even a shielded sow like that.  That was the whole reason I even took that pic is because I had already experience it and wanted to show it through another example, other than the video clip, with pictures.

The hog in the clip is a different hog that shows how far back it can go also.  The hog in the pic is not an exception or isolated incident in my experience.

No, this is not on every boar hog to this extent, nor thickness....depends on size and genetics I guess....but from what I've experienced, that pic is not an exception.  And folks should know what they can be up against and be prepared.

I know another guy from Cali that told me he'd never seen a shield like that one in the clip and he's killed a bunch of cali hogs....maybe ya'lls are little more recessive in the shield department. Heck if I know.

Again, the saying ....'Just shoot them quartering away so you'll miss the shield" is not always a true statement.  That's all I'm saying.
I like running 600 grain arrows with 4 Blade heads through animals with 60# + Bows!!!!!!

tarz@tradgang.com

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Offline beendare

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 11:52:00 PM »
I believe you. Seems to me that around here the shield stops at the end of the rib cage or thereabouts.  And no doubt hog species can vary a bit. Most of my hogs have been here in north and central Ca.

I have shot a few on the Hawaiian islands and its a much different animal [Tahitian hog, I think]. You would rarely/never see an 70# hog with 2" teeth in Ca but on the islands its common.

I have killed a few hogs with a shield that was more than 1 1/2" thick at the shoulders. These were older and wiser hogs- you could tell by the shredded ears [or no ears at all!]Those hogs were almost impossible to catch with dogs.  Many of those shielded hogs had sparse hair growing in that area- an indication of what lies below the surface.
You don't drown by falling in the water; you drown by staying there.”
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Online Terry Green

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 06:31:00 PM »
Beendare....yeah....about the back of the rib cage...that yellow drawing might be a bit off as I had to use 'paint' to draw it.  I cut that hog about 2 inches from the back of the rib cage...and that's where the others I shot like that ended.  

There's a nice soft gap between the ribcage/shield end and the ham....I'm sure that's designed for the ham coming forward....just like that soft spot gap right behind the elbow for rearward movement.


Here's another view of the same thing different hog...Note the how visible and thick this shield is from the OUTSIDE....and how far back it went...

   

   
I like running 600 grain arrows with 4 Blade heads through animals with 60# + Bows!!!!!!

tarz@tradgang.com

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Offline beendare

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 07:19:00 PM »
Thats a great picture of one of those big hogs with a shield.

The shoulder seems to bulge out a bit more and the hair over the shield portion is real sparse....gives a guy an indication of what he's up against.

 And also gives you a clue that it may not be the best eating hog.....
You don't drown by falling in the water; you drown by staying there.”
― Edwin Louis Cole

Online Terry Green

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Re: Heavy bone threshold works on hog shield?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 01:25:00 PM »
On boars that big....you never know till you either wind them before hand or if they stink after you kill them.

If they aren't rank.....the make a LOT of sausage.....and in several flavors....YUMMMM!!!!
I like running 600 grain arrows with 4 Blade heads through animals with 60# + Bows!!!!!!

tarz@tradgang.com

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

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