when bare shafting, cant or no canting

[Razorbak]

ok here is the problem...I hate to tune arrows like alot of people but I do but it's always a pain in the butt to do so because it seems like alot of us short draw guys cant get away with what the general concensus reccomends..Im shooting a 62#@27" shrew..I draw 26 1/2"  my arrows are cut to 27 1/2" ( I dont want to leave them longer than that..personally choice)  Im shooting Beman MFX woodies 400 spine, I have a 100 grain insert and using 175 grain head which Im hoping is the key combo I want...so ok here is the dilemma..I cant the bow and shoot the bareshafts and it shows stiff and this goes on with either the 200 or 250 point I switched to but when I shoot straight up and down using either point weight combo..I end up with the bow shooting the arrows slightly weak and high nock like the way it should be...now why is that?????  I heard that it doesnt matter but why do I keep seeing these results...now I know I can go to a 500 spine but it will be way lighter than I want which is about 100 grains less and with the 400,s  Im almost 70grains more than I want and that I can deal with, so any help and idea's and if this helps Im a lefty and I shot yesterday in a controlled environment ..so no wind or light changes and I shot these shafts bare and with feathers with the wraps that I use with the silencers I use...so basically all set up and I took all shots @17 yards...so what is correct??????    ps. I used a TS-1 string I twisted up with rubber silencers and the nocks fit perfect..not to tight or loose...just right

[mike g]

I would say, bare shaft the same way you normaly shoot your bow....

[JC]

My personal experience with carbons has proven to me you can have 2 of these 3 choices with carbons...but rarely all three: the weight you want, the length you want, and the arrow brand you want. Personally, I'd let go of the desire to have 27 1/2" total length and make em fly right. I draw about 27-27 1/2" and I shoot arrows a little over 29" because that's what it took to get the weight/flight combo I wanted.

Also, there are certainly other arrow brands that will give you a heavier weight with 500 spine...or at least get you closer to the weight/length you want.

And I agree with mike, testing should be done with the bow setup exactly as you plan to use it: same quiver, string, silencers, wind checker, glove, etc. etc.

[1gutpile]

I agree with Mike G...bareshaft identical to how you are going to shoot ...gut

[Razorbak]

I cant when I shoot...makes sense to bareshaft that way  and JC yes I should get over the fact about longer shafts but it just irritates me to have so may extra inces over my shelf    and I dont mind cutting them to 28" BOP  perhaps I will do that    ...the heaviest weight in a 500 spine I have found is the beman MFX woodies...I just ran the numbers and maybe I will give them a shot again..

[JC]

Are the MFX 9.7/inch? I didn't think they were as heavy as the max 4 but then, never had em in my hands so they might just be. I've got a 56" super Shrew Samurai 58#@27" that I shoot Max 4 400's a touch over 29", normal HIT insert, 200 grain head, dip/crest, 3 4" shields = approx 530gr.

[Razorbak]

JC
from what I can gather they weigh 500 - 9.7 gpi, 400 - 10.4 GPI  for the Beman MFX Classic and Im using the 100 grain brass inserts on the 400's and from what the numbers say..Im gonna be about 605grains and thats with 175 head and on the 500's I will be about 458grains using a 145 head using the regular inserts

[Razorbak]

PS. I would really hate to use anymore than the 250 heads cause with the 100 grain insert..Im pushing 350grains on the head

[JC]

Originally posted by Razorbak:
PS. I would really hate to use anymore than the 250 heads cause with the 100 grain insert..Im pushing 350grains on the head

Front heavy loaded carbons work well though man. Hope you solve the puzzle...carbons are certainly different to tune than aluminum. Good luck!  

[O.L. Adcock]

Razorbak, Are you looking at shaft angle or grouping with fletched shafts?? The bow and arrow shouldn't care one way or the other and surely shouldn't show opposite indications.....O.L.

[Tim]

Hey Art,

I wanted to throw this out at you since we both have the same bow and draw length. Here's my setup on my shrew. 60" 57@26. I draw 26...I've got one of John McCullough's strings (450+)on the bow. My arrows are Heritage 150's 27" with a wrap and 175 grain tips, 515 grains. If I bare shaft them they are nock left (I'm a lefty also, so that's stiff), not super stiff but definitely stiff. Art, here's the kicker....

When I fletch them with 3 five inch feathers and shoot them through paper they punch a flawless hole! Any where from 4 feet back to 10 feet back.  If you stand behind me and watch my arrow flight at a 60 yard target flight is absolutely perfect.

I did have a difficult time finding the right arrow for my shrew.  It was a bit finicky and always seemed to like a lighter spined shaft. I've always had to stick with either 2016's or the carbon 150's with a heavy tip. As far as canting, I've found that when I get the "right" shaft I can cant or shoot vertically and get the same results.

Talk to you later.....Tim

[Razorbak]

JC..the front heavy FOC do works but man thats alot of weight still    
OL.. I am looking at the way the shafts fly downrange and the way they stick into the target...should I rather go for groups?  I always wonder if the shaft gets wet it would still fly good..thats why I keep trying to make them weaker
Tim..after talking to you awhile back I was gonna try the carbon express woodies but some reason I wanted to try the bemans again..LOL  maybe I will order 1/2dz. of them to try   I love carbons and havent shoot wood in over 10 years but man it always seem frustrating to tune

[JC]

OL, you are indeed the guru of tuning....but I have two bows that show a definate difference when canted. Not sure if it's the grip or what, but "something" changes arrow impact with degree of cant, drastically when the bow is held perfectly horizontal vs. perfectly vertical (like 5 inches high at 15 yards). Not that way with all my bows but these two for certain.

And Art, read OL's section on tuning on his website, should have mentioned that earlier too. I personally use how the shaft sticks in my pile of sand to get in the ballpark, and then move to distance and groups as OL's site recommends to do final tuning.

[Razorbak]

I read Ol tuning page and after all the reading i should be good to go but this little problem still arises for me when i tune a bow

[O.L. Adcock]

Razorbak, Tim's example up there is a good one, there's about 400 "other" things will cause a shaft not to fly or stick in a target straight and they all look alike. Most that try to "fix" a problem using that method ultimately wind up with over spined shafts or can't get the problem to go away no matter what they do. Enter the frustration!  

Fletched shafts go pretty close to where they are pointed even if the spine is way off. They are your reference point. Where bare shafts or large fletched broadheads group in relation to the fletched field tips tells you exactly what is wrong. The only thing that will cause fletched feild tips to group one place and bare shafts another is tuning related only. Errors in form will only make both groups bigger.

To put it into perspective the best matched set up for your bow may or may not "shoot straight" unless your form is flawless. Most of us don't fall into that catagory. Stack fletched field tips, bare shafts, and large fletched broadheads into a pie plate from as far away as you can shoot a good group and you're in there no matter what "angle" the bare shafts are....O.L.

[Razorbak]

OL that makes alot of sense...thank you..I will try again and from what I was shooting the other day..my groups were within 3" of each other so even if the shaft is slighty stiff I can get away with good flight and vice or versa....man I gots lots of thinking to do now..LOL    thank you everyone

[ShootStraight]

Is your form exactly the same while shooting canted or uncanted? You probably know already but a small change in ones form can make huge changes when tuning, espically with a bare shaft. My bow hand seems to slide a touch more to the outside when canting the bow, which is the way I shoot. The position of your head can have an impact as well as related to the torque your string hand is putting on the string. Be sure to tilt your head to compensate for the canted bow to keep the relation the same. Does any of that make sense?!

[O.L. Adcock]

Razorbak, If they are grouping that close, back up, the further away, the more it tells you plus what you are looking for is slightly weak and nock point high will be the most forgiving.....O.L.

[olddogrib]

O.L.
Is it just me or do bare shaft carbons tend to have a noticeable little waggle come off the bow.  I use your method and the bare shafts group with fletched and even stick in the target straight, but seem to have a little nock left kick (I'm right handed) coming off the bow before they straighten out.  It's disconcerting, but I guess if I get the other results I shouldn't complain.  Could also be a lack of concentration with me trying to pick up arrow flight with my non-dominant eye.

[last arrow]

O.L. - what defines "slightly weak" spine, i.e., how do you know it is only slightly weak vs. to weak.  I've often heard that you should tune slightly weak spine but never really understood how to quantify this.

As always, your comments are very informative.