Ok. Here goes. My setup is as follows:
Bear Grizzly(new) 55lb @ 28, I draw 29"
3 rivers trad arrows, .300 spine, 30" BOP
100 gr brass insert, 160 gr FP w/ 125 gr adapter
Here's my predicament. Bare shaft impact point is as close as I can shoot it at 10-20 yds. Bare shafts have a severe nock right lean at impact into stacked foam at the park and my block at home, but impact point is good with fetched arrows; left, right, up and down. Paper testing at 6' and 12' with fletched arrows shows slightly nock right, I'm talking around 1/4-1/2" at the very most. When I watch the bare shafts fly, they fly nock right.
All the charts are telling me that I'm probably weak with that much front weight, but my gut tells me I'm way stiff by watching the flight of the bare shafts. I'm getting consistent paper test results and definitely noticed an improvement after switching from 275 grains to 340 grains, with the later still showing a bit stiff in paper. I would have thought that going from 340(190 gr fp, 100 gr adapter, and 50 gr insert) to 385( 160gr fp, 125gr adapter, and 100 gr insert) would have weakened the shaft enough. Could it be that the longer 100gr insert, being longer than the 50gr insert, was long enough to act as an internal footing, thereby stiffening the shaft more than they would have weakened it?
I just hate shooting out of tune arrows and have already ruined a shaft trying to get a 50gr insert out after epoxy. Help please!
Thanks in advance everyone
I'm no help on the tuning issue, but get some Quick Stick hot melt glue from Big Jims for your inserts, and you will never again ruin a shaft trying to get an insert out! That glue is the cat's meow for inserts!
Bisch
Sounds like at 29" length those 300's ARE too stiff.....What type of strike plate material do you have? If you could thin it down, or remove it completely.... it might just be enough
unfortunately tip weight on a 29" shaft just doesn't make that much difference. if you were shooting full length shafts the tip weight will effect the spine more so.
They're 30" back of point to valley of nock. The bow has the standard bear strike plate that came from that factory. So when bare shaft tuning, should I be more concerned with impact point or shaft angle into the target? Also had to reserve my string(over zealous razor blade when fixing my tied on nock points) and I think the fit is to tight. Would that also compound my issue? Thanks again
Chris. Where in ks are you?
The way the nock fits matters. But I think you're problem is your arrow is way too stiff. You should be using some .400/.350 spined arrows IMO.
As far as bareshafting, I noticed you only have 12 posts so I'm assuming you are relatively new to read archery and bare shafting will be challenging without consistent form. Now, to your question, I always focus on flight. The way it sticks in a target will lie to you Bc some targets have different densities from previous shots, etc. I have found that when my arrow flies perfectly true, it always hits in the middle.
Your mind is a powerful thing. You can take an arrow that is way stiff and hitting way left, shoot it for an hour, and you would swear it was perfectly tuned because your mind began making adjustments for you.
Hope this helps,
Daniel
Yes, as a matter of fact I am new to trad but not to archery in general. I shot compounds for about 5 years before getting burned out on whatever new widget that came along. I understand your point about form issues with bare shafts, would there be a better way to tune for beginners? Something to maybe take the form variable out of the equation?
I think I'm in agreement with all, pretty sure my shafts are too stiff. Kind of irritates me though, looking at all the charts, they say a 30" arrow with a 55-59 lb draw( I draw 29", so an extra 2.5lbs per inch over amo would make my bow weight 57.5 theoretically) and a 200 gr point is in the 300 spine range, and I'm shooting 285 on the point and 100 gr insert, almost 200 gr over what the chart says. I'm going to try taking off the strike plate and replace with some electric tape (so I don't scratch up my new bow)to get more center shot, see if that helps.
I'm going for a EFOC setup, maybe this dozen arrows is the cost of the learning curve, hope not, but sometimes the truth hurts...
IMO. You cannot take the form out of the tuning equation. It is the most important part. If you have a inconsistent release, arm position grip, body position etc. It will give you different arrow flight. It may not be much but will change things. When shooting a wheel bow you have a wrist strap, stabilizer to balance, let off to reduce strain, peep to line up with your sight, level go make sure your not canting the bow, a kisser button to put in the corner of your mouth each time, a draw stop to let you know to anchor and a mechanical release. In trad bows you have some of these but in a different manner, finger to corner of mouth, thumb behind jaw bone/jaw line, feather touching your nose, etc. All these things are like the wheel bow gadgets they help you with form. This has to be consistent first. Arrows may be the learning curve, but I am willing to bet its most likely starting off at 58# or so. I am still willing to let you try out some of the 5575 goldtips, just let me know.
The other thing as distance increases it will magnify those what you thought were small tuning adjustments.
As you get close at 10' 10 yards, move back as far as you want. Form will dictate how far you can get away with most likely. 30 yards is not out the question or even farther. I couldn't get past 30. Tuning the bow is as much tuning yourself as it is the setup!
When bareshafting, don't watch how it flies, let the impact tell you what it is. nock left is weak nock right is stiff on a RH handed bow. Initially the arrow is going to react to the shot (paradox) before it straightens out enough o read. I prefer a little weak, adding feathers to the back end will stiffen them up just a skosh. Its not much and typically can be corrected with Bh or the pressure point on the side plate.
Don't get bareshafting and bare shaft planning confused. Bare shafting you're using the angle of the shaft, bare shaft planning you're using the impact left or right of center as your guide. two separate setups. Start bareshaft than go to planning. Than go to fletched bh vs field point planning to super fine tune.
That makes sense. I was shooting at the 30yd lane this evening and could see my arrow porpoising all the way down range, whereas at 10yds, I couldn't really see it.
I was just going off of the Easton tuning guide for the impact point being the guide with a bareshaft.
Here's another thought. I'm in agreement that the shafts are stiff. Since my setup is around 26% foc, give or take, would that maybe explain why my impact point is pretty much right on with fletched impact point? If you live in kansas, you know we had some good wind last week in n.e. kansas. Shooting in the wind at 30 yds, my impact point, broad head and field point was right on the money, granted the arrows kicked all over, but the heavy front noticeably pulled them back into my point of aim. I know not everyone agrees with the super foc weight, but I'm sold, even though my shafts won't fly right from the word go, they still hit where I aim, regardless of how bad the flight is. Maybe these shafts will work for my brothers compound, I hate to just throw them out.
Out of curiosity, has/does anyone shoot a 300 spine arrow out of a recurve or longbow? I'm just really interested in how the arrow charts got the way they are if they're this far off the mark. Strange...
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=111908 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=1;t=113390
Theyre charts. References of sorts. Too many variables in stickbows to be spot on, though usually clise or close to a degree. Throw on efoc and that throws any chart a curve ball no one knew about not 10 yrs ago.
I call it fluid, maybe the wrong term. But its not specific like many lead you to believe.
Again at 10 yards or 100 yards your not trying to watch inflight movement though its obvious when youre grossly out. Youre watching the angle the shaft impacts after its hit.
shaft planing is going off your groups in relationship to another group of fletched shafts.
Watching inflight is a bad habit and hard to break.
For this part of tuning form is more important than accuracy. Close your eyes, relax and shoot.
Porposing is up and down. Generally is not a spine issue. Its a nock point and or shooting style issue.
Fish tailing is left rights. Which is spine or grossly messing up the shot. Think plucking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJ6-HjPMTM
I just got the exact same bow a couple months ago. I too started w 300 spine arrows and they were way too stiff. I went to 340 and they also were too stiff. I now shoot the 400's and they shoot but are a little too stiff and am in the playing process of putting weight up front to get them fine tuned.
The string that comes w the bow is constantly complained about here. The serving is huge causing your nocks to be WAY too tight - I simply re'served my string with a skinny tight serving. I also didn't like the big strike plate and replaced it with a thin piece of leather. Hope this helps
I should add that I'm also drawing about 29 so our set ups are nearly identical
I think you will find you are WAY stiff. I shoot full length 340s with 225-250g heads out of my 55# @ 28" recurve a drawn to 30"
tail weight will stiffen the shaft as well, do you use wraps or lighted knocks?
Tim B, what weight do you have on the front currently and what is your shaft length?
Sounds like I need to be in the 400 spine range. I'd still like to shoot a high foc setup and have plenty of inserts and adapters to play with now.
My current arrows have wraps, no lighted nocks. They are just as 3 rivers assembled them
Chris. I got the 5575 out today they are 30.5" I got point weights of 175. 225. 250. 275 and 290 ready to go. A bareshaft and fletched of each. Pretty windy here today but we will see how it goes. Ya might just have to borrow them and tune of a not so windy day. However. The range I told you about has a treeline that shoukdmblock most of it. Also has a walk through area in the b ottoms. Probabky wont be as windy down there. James
Chris- my arrows are 31" long and this will sound silly but I currently have a 4 blade 100gr muzzy on the front. I have 150 woodsmans for them but they wouldent fly right. BUT I just ordered 160 zwickey Eskimo and 100 gr inserts so I can get 260 up front.
Like I said my arrows are still a little stiff...and this should help. All that being said I shot a deer last week and was impressed with the muzzy.
Thanks for the info everyone.
James, I'll give you a shout in just a bit when I get done at the Dr.
Tim, thanks for the reply. I've got some 160 gr Magnus classics I shot out of my compound for years that I'm trying to use. I've got 100gr and 125 gr adapters and 50 and 100 brass inserts so im tryinh to stay somewhat within those parameters.
Im still just absolutely irritated about how far off the mark spine charts obviously are. While I've really enjoyed shooting traditional way more than the compound, this arrow deal has just perplexed me to no end. I also think my center serving is way too big. Guess I'll b going to the store tonight to get some smaller stuff.
Double post. Sorry
I had to ignore the charts and buy an arrow of each spine,a test kit of every point weight from 75 to 315, golt tip 14gr , 50gr 100gr inserts, screw in weights then i got my own arrow saw. It was then I was able to get it all tuned right. It is a learning process, but it was a good one. Now I have confidence in my setup. And I have been able to tune all my bows to what works for me.
I'll add that I would go shoot w James when ya get the chance. Nice offer James. And if I was closer I would go shoot with ya. I wish I had someone w a bunch of carbons when I started this carbon journey.....it gets expensive quick
Good luck
QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Pharr:
Thanks for the info everyone.
James, I'll give you a shout in just a bit when I get done at the Dr.
Tim, thanks for the reply. I've got some 160 gr Magnus classics I shot out of my compound for years that I'm trying to use. I've got 100gr and 125 gr adapters and 50 and 100 brass inserts so im tryinh to stay somewhat within those parameters.
Im still just absolutely irritated about how far off the mark spine charts obviously are. While I've really enjoyed shooting traditional way more than the compound, this arrow deal has just perplexed me to no end. I also think my center serving is way too big. Guess I'll b going to the store tonight to get some smaller stuff.
Spine charts are always WAY stiff. Doesn't much matter for compounds as they are totally center shot. I would guess 400s would work good for you. Good luck.
Went shooting with James this afternoon and really want to say thanks to him. It's a real sign of the quality of people I've met since starting to shoot trad and they're generosity.
One thing I learned today is I'm not a consistent enough of a shot to really judge the spine at this point. Another thing I've concluded is at this point, I'm not dumping any more money into new shafts. Once I lose most of these I'll get more and try to get a perfect tune.
We did however change my strike plate out for a thinner one, which I think helped bring the bow to more center shot than it was.
James, I'll b shooting those shafts you lent me tomorrow afternoon and over the weekend. I'll let you know if I come to any conclusion and get them back to you. Thanks again
Your welcome. No hurry on the shafts either.
Good deal- keep me posted here what shaft and weight up front works best!
Trad guys are some of the nicest you'll find- and James is a good example
I think you are way over spined.
You probably need a .400 shaft at that length and 50 or 100 gr inserts with the points you are using.
I'd go to a .400 spine and tune with point weight.
A huge component is also form. My current setup is a 62# recurve cut to center, but side plate shimmed to about 1/8" from center. Stu miller calculator said I needed like 75# dynamic spine. I ended up bare shaft tuning and ended with a shaft of nearly 85# dynamic spine and still showing very very slightly weak.
My other recommendation is this, find someone with a chronograph and shoot through it. It will tell you a lot about your form. If you're not shooting strings within a few FPS of each other your anchor point is not consistent enough and/or your release is not consistent enough. Don't worry about what the speed is, just that it's extremely consistent.
I really need to figure out how to upload pics here. Probably make this whole thread easier for everyone to see what's going on. Something I forgot to mention about this whole thing. When I first started shooting this setup and was shooting pretty good that day, my FP group and BH group were pretty darned close together at 25 yds. An I completely wrong in thinking that BH and FP grouping together would be my ultimate goal? Keep in mind also I'm shooting the 160 gr Magnus classic 2 blade. The things are super wide, like 1.5", way wider than my other Eskimos or magnus classics. Wouldn't a huge wide BH highlight any errors in the arrows tune?
Again, I'm shooting these things till they break no matter what, but am also going to keep shooting the shafts James lent me just for peace of mind.
On a side note, my brother just texted me some pics from out trail cam out at my uncle's place where we hunt. Got some nice pics of a good looking 8 point and a 10 point out there along with a bunch of does. They're coming in around 430 in the afternoon the last 3 days. Hopefully all the pieces will fall into place for me this weekend
If I can put my hand over the group of both arrows fp and bh shafts that a good group, for now. As you get better you'll shrink those to the size of a soda can.
If I can ever figure out how to upload from photobucket, I'd show everyone the group. Looking at the pic, I'd say the group was about soda can size with the Bh's hitting to the right of the field points, which the Easton tuning guide says is a weak shaft.
I'm just getting a bunch of mixed results, probably due to my shooting consistency.
As a side note for those following the dynamic spine calc thread, my current setup shows way weak with the personal form factor set at 0, closest I can get to match is setting the PFF at -15 and it still shows my arrows as to weak for my bow. Food for thought I guess
Uploading from photo bucket. http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=129;t=000307
Thanks James. See if this works...http://s651.photobucket.com/user/cap4382/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151031_161943_zpsuvqvjn8c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
no it didn't. You need to use the img link -http://s651.photobucket.com/user/cap4382/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151031_161943_zpsuvqvjn8c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0-
http://s651.photobucket.com/user/cap4382/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151031_161943_zpsuvqvjn8c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Didn't work for me either.....