If your bow was labeled with the correct AMO length, or if not it had an actual string length added to the writing on it (example: ASL 57"), would that influence your decision on whether or not to buy that bow. The purpose behind either one would be to give the customer an accurate, middle of the road length for a new string.
Rather than vote, which only answers the question AS WORDED with the answers AS ALLOWED, I will say...
it would not stop me from buying a bow, but.. come on, (bowyers) is it really that difficult to add that information on to the bow when you build it ? If it helps the folks using your equipment, is it not worth a minute of your time ? Maybe the brace height as well.
Chuck
Thanks Chuck. What I meant was, say you had it narrowed down to two bows you like equally well. One has the ASL on it, the other does not. Would that extra ink make you lean towards that bow, or would it make you lean towards the one without the extra ink? I didn't mean would you make a decision to buy or not based solely on that.
Chad
Assuming 2 identical bows, one with ASL one with AMO I would choose ASL. If not identical I would just choose the one I liked best and figure out brace height myself. What is the point of AMO anyway? seems like way to let manufactures be lazy
When labeled correctly, AMO will tell you what length string will put your bow within the recommended brace height range, plus it will give you a close estimate on the over-all length of the strung bow.
For instance, if a bow is 66" AMO, it will get a 63" string and the strung length will be around 66". That is as long as the bow and string are both made to ATA specs.
If the recommended brace height on a bow works out for me, then I run with it, and the string that came with it, but I've seldom had a bow that I wound up running with the recommended brace height anyway. I usually wind up using a much higher than recommended.
If the string that comes with the bow will allow me to get the brace height where I want it that's fine. If it don't I get a different string, and it's never been to difficult to get what I wanted, although I have had a few hard headed stringers who took me a while to convince.
It makes no difference to me......but I think it is a nice touch. I have seen a few that were marked with the string length but I can't remember which bowyers did it.
No big shock so far--nobody would be turned off if the bow has the ASL on it or if it were labeled with the correct AMO.
I wish I'd added more details...like if you were buying the bow used and it had no string/obviously the wrong length string. Oh well...hindsight's 20/20.
Ron, Herter's is the only one I know of. May have been others, but I've never seen one.
Chastain used to mark their bows with string length. At least the ones I had were.
Cool--I didn't know that. Never owned a Chastain that I can remember--don't know that I've even shot one.
bear in mind that to a tiny or huge degree, all bows and bowstrings are somewhat unique.
"AMO" means absolutely nothing to me - never heeded their "recommendations" and never will. i've seen way too many variations and fudge factors with "AMO guidelines". there is no need for that, at least for me.
a good bowyer designs a bow with lots of parameters in mind, and part of that equation will be its brace height. whatever string length is required to attain that magic brace height is all that matters. a good bowyer will supply one or more correct strings for his bow, to the bow's new owner. and so, there is no viable alternative to being sold a bow with a proper length bowstring, as its creator recommends.
should the bowyer tell the customer what length bowstring is required for that bow to achieve a proper brace height, as defined by the bowyer? or should the customer ask the bowyer for that data? to me, it doesn't matter. i make bowstrings and what string length or parameters or materials required is something i can control. to a beginning archer, that could be an issue and all that archer needs to do is either ask the bowyer and/or measure the string that came with the bow. it's not rocket science.
whatever string that comes with a new bow, that allows the recommended bowyer/manufacturer brace height, should be the length model for all future bowstrings for that unique bow.
"hey, what string length?" - depends on how ya measure a string - what is its material, how much twist is in, and whether it's got most of its stretch removed. more subjectively unique stuff. :cool:
There's one flaw there Rob. Marking the bow incorrectly. AMO may not mean anything to some folks, but it's a standard...THE standard, and has been for over half a century. Just like marking a bow's draw weight at 28", or marking it at all. If it's not going to be done correctly, why mark it at all?
You don't invent your own limb connection system, label it as "ILF", and expect people to be happy with it when you aren't following the standard but label the bow as if you are.
AMO string length standards are simple. Mark the bow 3" longer than the string that puts it at the proper brace. If they don't want to do that, them simply don't label the bow as "AMO". That would be the honest thing to do.
You are da man Rob... that was a good explanation.
Loop size & measuring AMO string length is one thing using 1/4" pegs, and the size of the loop won't make any difference on the length of the string...... But......It can be something completely different when you put it on limb tips of different bows that have various different shapes and width between the tip notches.
Some bowyers just cut straight notches 90 degrees to the face of the glass and that string has to bend around the angle. Very common in the older recurve bows. Others shape their string grooves so they are rounded off and the string makes a smoother transition into the limb..... The widths between the notches and the width of the limbs themselves dictate the appropriate loop size.
If the loops are too tight, the string can bind up on a recurve limb and cause limb twist if it is left strung without making sure its centered up properly..... its most commonly seen on RC strings where the bottom loop is done smaller than the top loop.
If the recommended brace height is 7" and marked AMO 60" & a 57" AMO string is provided with the appropriate loop size, and the archer prefers an 8" brace. He is going to order a string an inch shorter than AMO, or have to do a lot of twisting......
Now.... what AMO length bow does he have now? If the string length regulates the AMO bow length. Is it miss marked now?
There are a lot of factors to consider, and unfortunately for you string builders, you guys gotta roll with it just like custom bowyers do. Even if every bowyer marks their bows accurately you guys still need to take loop size and twist count into consideration for different bow designs and customer whims.....
Btw.... i was just pulling your leg on marking mine wrong on that other sight LBR... I order my strings long with very few twists so i can dial in the exact brace as i tune it before i ship it out. They come out pretty darn close to AMO specs when i'm done, but every bow has a sweet spot and they all vary.
Having bought a LOT of used bows, some without strings, I think it would be a nice touch if the bowyer put EITHER the ASL or AMO length on the bow. It certainly wouldn't turn me off if they were both on the bow, but that's redundant. Just as long as, if the bowyer marks it AMO, he follows the AMO guidline - correct string length plus 3".
Sure, I can put a temporary string on and twist it up or down and then measure it at what I'm guessing is the correct brace height.
I don't happen to have any 68" bows nor strings for them. If I were to pick up a 68" bow without a string, it would be nice to know whether I should order a 64", 65" or 66" string so I can start tuning it.
i don't particularly care what length or xx@xx is marked on any trad bow. those are guidelines. some can be spot on, others way spot off. and those who've been in this sport for decades learnt that quite well.
the problem with all this bow and string length stuff are the folks bow buyers/owners who just quite don't know. if AMO can make folks warm and fuzzy, that's a good thing. but some of us know better, and the newbies will hopefully learn in time, too.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bladepeek:
Having bought a LOT of used bows, some without strings, I think it would be a nice touch if the bowyer put EITHER the ASL or AMO length on the bow. It certainly wouldn't turn me off if they were both on the bow, but that's redundant. Just as long as, if the bowyer marks it AMO, he follows the AMO guidline - correct string length plus 3".
Sure, I can put a temporary string on and twist it up or down and then measure it at what I'm guessing is the correct brace height.
I don't happen to have any 68" bows nor strings for them. If I were to pick up a 68" bow without a string, it would be nice to know whether I should order a 64", 65" or 66" string so I can start tuning it.
the bowyer just needs to specify a bowstring length for a particular bow. that's all. that's also the start, because different string types and materials are just different. it's just an educational thing.
QuoteLoop size & measuring AMO string length is one thing using 1/4" pegs, and the size of the loop won't make any difference on the length of the string...... But......It can be something completely different when you put it on limb tips of different bows that have various different shapes and width between the tip notches.
That's why AMO requires a set of "string masters". Measuring on 1/4" pegs is the standard, so everyone is on the same page. The width of the limb, how the grooves are cut, etc. won't change the length of the string master that fits a particular bow.
Say a 57" string master is what puts your bow at the proper brace height. Regardless of loop size, a string maker that is following AMO specs will duplicate that length. They are both measured on 1/4" pegs, so they are the same length. It doesn't matter if they are shorter when actually put on the bow. That's why they are "standards". The string length matches the length of the string master that fits.
If someone chooses to set their bow up outside the given parameters, that's their choice. That is the exception, not the rule, and it won't change AMO Standards. Got to start somewhere. Why not start with the correct measurement?
QuoteEven if every bowyer marks their bows accurately you guys still need to take loop size and twist count into consideration for different bow designs and customer whims.....
Not when it comes to AMO specifications--I've already proven that. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know a pretty good bit about making strings. The only specifications are 1/4" pegs, 50# load for 10 strands or less of Dacron, 100# load for everything else, for 20 seconds. Doesn't matter what bow design or what material. Couldn't get much more simple.
So, again...why not either mark the actual string length on the bow, or if you are going to put "AMO" on it follow AMO specs so it's correct? It doesn't cost a penny more to do it right to begin with.
Thank you Bladepeek.
Rob, I respect your experience, but if a bowyer doesn't know his own bows well enough to at least put me in the ballpark by giving me either the recommended string length or the AMO bow length, he doesn't know his own bows very well.
When I order the string length I believe I need, every string maker I have ordered from on this site has given me what I asked for. It may turn out not to be the perfect length for that bow, but it will be close enough that I can use it. Next time, I'll order 1/2" longer or shorter as necessary, but I'll have a good, usable string to start with.
:deadhorse:
As long as I have a tape measure, I can figure out a desirable string length. Besides, it is easy to contact the bowyer or others archers that have that same bow. Strictly a non-issue.
QuoteRob, I respect your experience, but if a bowyer doesn't know his own bows well enough to at least put me in the ballpark by giving me either the recommended string length or the AMO bow length, he doesn't know his own bows very well.
On a similar note...how many bowyers/companies are no longer in business? How hard can some of them be to contact?
Buying the bow new isn't a problem--normally you get a string that fits and/or paperwork.
It's the used bows that are the main problem...how many of us that have been in the sport for any amount of time hasn't bought a used bow? How about the guys or gals who are just getting started and don't have a clue how to figure out what string their bow needs? Just their tough luck? I talk to these people all the time, and thankfully we can eventually figure most of them out. Sometimes it takes more than one attempt.
I ask again: why not do it right the first time, especially when it doesn't cost one penny more? Sure, AMO may not be perfect for everyone, but at least for the big majority it will get you within a few twists of the sweet spot--assuming the bowyer knows his own bows.
QuoteBesides, it is easy to contact the bowyer or others archers that have that same bow. Strictly a non-issue.
Ok, could you get me the recommended string lengths for the following?
A 68" Benchmark longbow
A 56" Chek-Mate Firebird
A 60" Fedora Jr.--that really funky one that wasn't really a longbow, not really a recurve
A 58" Chek-Mate Longhorn
A 66" Brad Smith selfbow
A 68" Paul Bunyan longbow
A 66" 21st Century, Jim and Buddy model
That list could go on for pages. There are tons of bowyers and companies that aren't around anymore, and at best you will get a wild guess as to what string will fit. Even if someone thinks they have the same bow, that doesn't mean it is the same bow.
Not trying to be a smart aleck here, just making a point. I deal with this stuff all the time. I know what a pain it can be, and the solution seems to be so simple...why it causes such an uproar is a total mystery to me.
Btw, I can't remember the string length on a few of those bows I listed, but I've made strings for all of them and more.
It wouldn't influence my decision, but I would prefer it not be written on the bow. Only the length, weight, serial number and bowyer info for me. Achieving your preferred brace height, which would determine your actual string length, is part of the enjoyment of our passion.
One way I combat this:
"get your bow at the preferred brace height and measure the string." That way I am very close. I will admit that I hate making strings because I was told the wrong length, but I think that is just part of the business.. I have done it several times and i will do it every time needed.
It's not that difficult to measure the actual length of your bow, and build a string accordingly, Recurve or longbow you should have a general idea of brace height.
This ain't rocket science....
Bow length doesn't determine string length.
One simple point keeps being dodged. It wouldn't cost a thing, wouldn't add any marks to the bow. Mark the bow correctly, problem solved.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Physical bow length doesn't determine string length.
One simple point keeps being dodged. It wouldn't cost a thing, wouldn't add any marks to the bow. Mark the bow correctly, problem solved.
Tried to edit on a phone...
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Bow length doesn't determine string length. ...
exactly.
i see all of this as a non-issue for those in the know and a learning experience for those who just don't know so they can get to know how to deal with bows, bowstrings, and the optimum performance brace height for any bow.
clue: this is the Perfect reason to have a tillering string. :bigsmyl:
AMO bow length isn't determined by the physical bow length either. If its accurate, it's 3" longer than the correct length string.
I'm sure some folks like to tinker with it. Lots don't. Same thing as wooden arrow makers, flint knappers, etc.
It would not influence me one way or the other. How the bow felt in my hands and how it shot for me would be what influences me!
Bisch
If having the option I would buy the bow I shoot better. If both being equal, I would buy the one with the ink.
Interesting discussion, and yes, I think it would be nice if all bowyers followed a standard and we all knew exactly what that meant. But my gut tells me most custom bowyers don't care all that much about AMO. Heck, in some circles "AMO" has become more an adversary with their support of high tech, crossbows, etc. A lot of the trad community don't give a rip what AMO thinks.
Most bows I've seen, and I've seen hundreds when I was refinishing them, are simply marked with the length - no reference to "AMO" in front of the number. So no implication that it complies with some "standard". Some do, but certainly not all.
I'm not sure when the AMO standard came in to being. But at one point in our past the recommended way to measure the length of a bow was to measure from string groove to string groove following the back of the bows profile. Using that method can certainly yield a different result than AMO. Some bowyers probably use different methods as well.
Also, archers are funny people. I think we've gotten accustomed to the fact that bows come in 2" increments in length. People get set in their minds as to which length they prefer. I like 62" recurves. A 61" recurve would be strange. Never mind that it would be hard to tell the difference. The Bowyer with a bow that might come out at 61" according to AMO is going to mark it as a 60 or 62".
The best solution, and one I would prefer to see is to simply mark the string length on the bow. I've seen a couple that do that and I like it.
To heck with AMO. We're traditional archers and we follow no standards. LOL!
yep - more than a few bows labelled 60" are really 59" or 61" - all depending on how ya measure them, and that process can be a bit tricky, too.
we all need to get with the program and face reality - NONE of this bow length and bowstring stuff is exacting. the fact that strings can, and need, to be twisted sez it all - its working length will change. so will it change as the strands adjust to minor length anomalies and any inherent stretch is mitigated.
no matter what the bow length - either measured or labelled - it could easily take a shorter or longer string for that bow to achieve its best performing brace height.
so, there is NO exact bowstring length, unless this was the 70's and the string was kevlar. let's not go down that road, hah!
yes, bowstrings can change/shorten their length by twisting, and some twisting should be done to round it off, make it more aerodynamic and get those strands to lie together for maximum strength and performance.
i'll say again - a tillering string can take a buncha guess work outta what string length to use for that bow ya just bought that didn't come with any string, or length label on the riser or limbs. :D
Quote
i'll say again - a tillering string can take a buncha guess work outta what string length to use for that bow ya just bought that didn't come with any string, or length label on the riser or limbs.
I agree with that, Rob. However, even with the tillering string, you still need to know what brace height to set it at, and it would be nice if a recommended brace height was marked on the bow. Granted, you may want to experiment around and set a different brace height yourself, but you still need someplace to start.
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
Quote
i'll say again - a tillering string can take a buncha guess work outta what string length to use for that bow ya just bought that didn't come with any string, or length label on the riser or limbs.
I agree with that, Rob. However, even with the tillering string, you still need to know what brace height to set it at, and it would be nice if a recommended brace height was marked on the bow. Granted, you may want to experiment around and set a different brace height yourself, but you still need someplace to start. [/b]
correct - BUT, a tillering string gets you right close, if not spot on, for string length. yes, there are twist and stretch issues as always, but it's much better start than any kinda guess. tillering strings are easy to make, too.
I've always made my own strings, all I do is measure the length of the bow and know what string to make.
It is a non-issue to me.
QuoteOriginally posted by pockets:
It is a non-issue to me.
This.
I agree that it's a non-issue for those of us who make our own strings. I think Chad's looking at it from the perspective of a string-maker, who gets a call from someone:
Customer: "Hey, I've got a 64" Chek-Mate Kings Pawn recurve, and I need a string."
Chad: "What's the length of the string you've got on the bow now?"
Customer: "I don't have a string for it."
So Chad is left guessing, unless he's previously made a string for a 64" Chek-Mate Kings Pawn and remembers how long he made it.
jhk, that is exactly the perspective I'm speaking from. It puts both the person who owns the bow and the person making the string in a bad spot, even worse if the person with the bow doesn't have much experience. Thank you!
that's it exactly - yer either in the know or not.
i don't see this as a problem for those not in the know ...
if you have the original string, measure it loop-to-loop end, and yer in the ballpark.
no string? if the bowyer stuck on a string length and you know that bow's brace height range, yer good to go. or, you either ask the bowyer, or use a tillering string.
this isn't rocket science. ya just need to know stuff. don't know stuff? this is one reason for trad gang and its good members in the know.
I've probably many bows and for the last 10 years or so have made most of my own strings. I've never found the AMO info to be particularly useful or accurate and have no idea why it varies as much as it does with regard to what string actually fits a given bow the best. But it does vary, sometimes by alot. AMO string length may be an industry standard but for practical purposes I've not found it to be a very good one.
Bowyers obviously know what strings fit their own bows the best...they've designed, tested and sold them as a unit. So, to me it would make sense for bowyers to label their bows with info for the string they originally designed for the bow. If owners later want to experiment and try something different then that's their choice, but IMO the specs for the string that originally came with the bow, the one that was tested and found to be the best fit by the bowyer, should be inked on the bow right along with the standard 'pounds at X weight' info. An inking would/could look something like this:
48#@28"
STR: D97,57",7.5"BH
Translation...The bow weighs 48# at a 28" draw and the original string is made of D97 and is 57" long at a 7.5" brace height.
It's at least a starting point for the person or persons purchasing the bow.
Sorry for the spelling errors above.
Also, forgot to mention that in addition to the material type (EX: D97) the strand count would be useful to list.
Quote... An inking would/could look something like this:
48#@28"
STR: D97,57",7.5"BH
Translation...The bow weighs 48# at a 28" draw and the original string is made of D97 and is 57" long at a 7.5" brace height.
... [/QB]
that's the way to do it, for sure. doubt many, if any, will. too bad.
I would like to have asl and bh marked on my bows
For giggles, I did a TG search on "string length". Seems a lot of folks don't know what length string they need for a particular bow. They asked here, but it can vary depending on preferances and the individual bow. I still think it would eliminate a lot of headaches if it were written on the bow.
Material types change, but the lengths are still usually very close regardless of material. A good starting point would help a lot, I think.
Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply. might drop a note to your favorite bowyer and ask them to mark your next bow with the "ASL".
Chad
I had a wapiti made by Kieth Kastain and it had the string length SL along with amo. I thought it was a great touch.
Your search found a lot of folks needing to know what string length they needed. Now do a search for posts about bow draw weight not as marked on the Bow. An inch is an inch and a pound is a pound, but they still get marked incorrectly. I see your point, but trying to get every bow maker to do it is far from likely.
QuoteOriginally posted by Hermon:
... I see your point, but trying to get every bow maker to do it is far from likely.
and that's about the way it is, good or bad.
One more thing. 'ASL' also means American Semi Longbow' to many. Might want to use a different abbreviation when labeling a longbow...just to avoid confusion.
To answer the original question, I don't think labeling or not labeling with the AMO standard stops or attracts people from buying a bow, but I do think that labeling bows with clear and useful info, without looking like it was done by a kid with a crayon, adds more of a 'care and quality' aspect to a bow. And THAT might entice buyers.
Again, I'm not talking about it being THE deciding factor. Take two bows that are equal in all aspects, one has the actual string length marked or you know for sure the AMO length is marked correctly, and the other isn't.
For me, having that little bit of information would be a positive. Sure wouldn't be a negative.
According to the poll results, there's more than 6 times as many people that prefer this information than those who do not. A big majority are indifferent, so it's not like it would hurt sales to mark the string length or label the AMO/ATA bow length correctly. Looking at almost 20%, out of this tiny sampling, that would be swayed in a positive way.
Wish I could have gotten an answer to the original question, but the poll results are interesting. Thanks to all who participated.
Chad, I feel your pain. I really do. Whenever we send out a string we pray it doesn't come back due to length issues. Unfortunately AMO attempted to eliminate this problem many years ago and obviously they failed. I've often thought about creating a one page memo on string length and all the issues around it. Then I would send that page with every string ordered.
Thanks Larry--good to hear from someone else who deals with this stuff all the time.
In my opinion where AMO/ATA dropped the ball was getting the word out. The specs would work, if people knew them and followed them. Maybe if there were some sort of incentive to follow them...danged if I know.
QuoteOriginally posted by LostNation_Larry:
Chad, I feel your pain. I really do. Whenever we send out a string we pray it doesn't come back due to length issues. Unfortunately AMO attempted to eliminate this problem many years ago and obviously they failed. I've often thought about creating a one page memo on string length and all the issues around it. Then I would send that page with every string ordered.
bravo, larry - that's the way to do it!
why not let a bow buyer know what the scoop is on the most important part of any bow - it's transmission!
once a bowyer completes a bow, and figures out the best string type, strand count, and length that will set a good performing brace height range - pass that on to its owner.
I've heard that there are bowyers who actually work with the bow, till they find the sweet spot in brace where it all comes together, send that information along with the bow to their customers--- and people refuse to heed it.
Nothing like individualism in our midst!!! :knothead:
I've had custom string makers make up videos to show the EXACT way to measure a string to ensure there was clear communication... and would NOT build a string till they were satisfied that the customer had measured it properly and found the best brace. :thumbsup:
While a minority opinion here, which isn't all that unusual, me thinks, and I will throw in my $.02, that PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (was that a cuss word these days?) would suggest the onus is on the individual to be sure he knows a) What brace is best for his/her bow and b) how to measure a replacement string to ensure clear communication with the string provider.
Of course, helping a string customer to know how to do such things might provide a challenge for some of the more independent thinkers out there... :rolleyes:
All the writing on a bow of such stuff does, to my thinking, is to clutter up the beauty of a stick bow's graceful lines and looks. I don't want it!
Sure, I'm all for having builders of bows AND strings communicate, but then, as stated, there is a percentage of people who will REFUSE to be confused by facts! They'll go their own route. Seems same would be true if it were branded on their forehead or written on their bow!
Soldier on!
My feelings also Doc! Of course, much better wording and clarity than I could muster.
Doc nailed it..... Having string builders and the bowyer communication is the most important thing. Also the bowyer passing that info along to the customer is wize.... Marking more abbreviations on bows are just going to cause a bunch of phone calls to the bowyer or manufacture....
I think i may start marking my bows 60" WTF instead of AMO... Or better yet 60" LOL
What I want to know is the nock to nock length of the bow. With that knowledge I would know what length string I most likely need depending on the type string. I twist here or there to fine tune. For instance if I am ordering a B-55 string it will be a little shorter than a D-97.
If I made bows I would mark what the string length should be to get to the recommended brace height. That would solve the problem. Then if you wanted a higher or lower brace height you would twist your string accordingly. Simple!!!!
It appears that is too simple and makes too much sense Producer, as is actually following AMO specs when labeling a bow "AMO". That is precisely what marking a bow's AMO length is for. True, accurate, honest AMO length is directly related to the string length. Not sure how it could be any more simple.
while perhaps, and i'm guessing, most of the time the amo length to bow string length works ok, there WILL be times when that string length is just ballpark and will NOT allow the bow in question to achieve optimum performance via a specific brace height. hence, you may need to do some added personal brace height and bowstring testing.
with custom bows, we can only trust our bowyers to tell us what BRACE HEIGHT range works best with any particular bow, as well as string fiber type and strand count.
with commercial bows, those numbers will always be ballpark.
why settle for ballpark when -if possible- you should be able to get the right scoop from the bowyer?
as to labelling the riser with bow length, exact loop-to-loop string length, exact (no fudging, now!!) holding weight at a specific draw length, that may be well and good, but it ain't ever gonna happen. :D
I don't see why it can't happen Rob, next time you order a custom bow just ask the bowyer to mark the bow with BH & SL info. Seems simple.... If he refuses to do it just don't buy his bow. Simple...
My stringmaker just reminded me today that in order for him to build me a good string for a particular bow I need to leave the bow with him for a while until he gets in the mood...and he builds the string for that particular bow after measuring it...a string that is an exact match for a bow can make a noticable difference in string noise
DDave
Ballpark should get you within a half inch or so of optimum, if not closer. The bowyer should know his/her own bows. That's within a few twists rather than a new string.
DD, the only way to get an exact match is for you to shoot and tune it. All someone else can do is get it in the ballpark.
Very true Chad.
I make my own strings, following Chad's DVD, and I have a nail on a wall in my bow room that is getting pretty full of strings where I guessed wrong on strings I made for an unmarked used bow or for a friend's bow. I keep hoping a bow will turn up that one of those strings will fit, but I may run out of space on the nail before that happens.
I can understand why a bowyer wouldn't want to mark a bow with both AMO bow length and actual bow length, as having two lengths on the same bow would be confusing to buyers. However, having actual string length and brace height would be helpful.
All of my bows have LBR strings on them. The biggest pain is not the tuning to get the correct string length. Chad always says measure that tuned bow nock to nock. I don't like how the metal catch on my tape can mark the bow finish when I pull it tight. You would not believe the hoops I have to jump through to get someone, especially my wife, to hold the dumb end of the tape so I can get a good measurement.
Chad, I understand your dilemma and see how it makes your craft a pain in the rear.
Whip's opening comments express my feeling:
"Interesting discussion, and yes, I think it would be nice if all bowyers followed a standard and we all knew exactly what that meant. But my gut tells me most custom bowyers don't care all that much about AMO. Heck, in some circles "AMO" has become more an adversary with their support of high tech, crossbows, etc. A lot of the trad community don't give a rip what AMO thinks."
I will add, the glass bows I build are measured and marked the same way my selfbows are measured and marked, nock to nock along the back of the bow. I measure them this way mainly because it is not how the AMO does it. I don't want to be associated with that organization in any way shape or form, and therefore refuse to use any standards they set for equipment. Want to know how I really feel about the AMO?
Regarding marking the brace height and string length on the bow, they will both vary with the individual bow, string material, nock material (loop length) and who and how they shoot the bow. Anybody who buys one of my glass bows is told in the warranty letter a brace height range (usually a ¾" range) where the bow normally shoots the smoothest. When they receive the bow it has an endless loop AstroFlight string that is twisted to the brace height where the bow shoots smoothest for me. After that it is up to the new owner to adjust and find the brace height they prefer, and then order strings accordingly.
Quote...I have a nail on a wall in my bow room that is getting pretty full of strings where I guessed wrong on strings I made for an unmarked used bow or for a friend's bow. I keep hoping a bow will turn up that one of those strings will fit, but I may run out of space on the nail before that happens.
That's one of the things that marking the bow correctly if it's marked AMO, or marking an ASL on it, would fix. I took a few gallon zip lock bags full to Denton Hill several years ago. The simple act of marking the bow correctly would save some of us a ton of needless work.
QuoteYou would not believe the hoops I have to jump through to get someone, especially my wife, to hold the dumb end of the tape so I can get a good measurement.
More frustration that could easily be avoided.
If a bow was marked as ILF, but wasn't really ILF, it would cause a major ruckus.
Well said Walt....
I refer to AMO/ATA because that's the only established standard for the industry. No problem if someone doesn't want to follow AMO, just don't mark the bow as AMO--that's what causes confusion.
FWIW, I've been to the ATA show the last few years and there's a strong traditional presence that has been growing every year.
Our three piece bows are a bit of a problem as the limbs and risers are interchangeable. With four riser length from 13 to 19" and limbs from short to XXL you can create bows from 64 to 68 inches. I do provide the brace height and string specs to each customer but don't mark string length on the limbs.
ILF bows are even more of a problem in that you can install standard length ILF limbs on any riser from warf'd compound risers to custom ILF. Each riser manufacture build the risers to their specs creating a multitude of possibilities for brace and string length.
I do agree that one piece bows should be marked though.
Mike
Thanks Mike--that answers one of the big questions I had (why not mark them?). Makes sense on those.
Chad
QuoteOriginally posted by Quickblood:
It wouldn't influence my decision, but I would prefer it not be written on the bow. Only the length, weight, serial number and bowyer info for me. Achieving your preferred brace height, which would determine your actual string length, is part of the enjoyment of our passion.
Exactly. Guys will spend weeks paper tuning ,bare shafting but finding string brace or length is the end of the world .
Got to have a starting point.