Imagine you are standing behind some subalpine firs overlooking a used wallow 25 yards away. A group of elk, including a great 5x6 pass by on the edge of the trees and clearing that are right at 50 yards. They are unaware of your presence, there is no wind, no branches to impede an arrow and the elk are in no hurry; They're stopping and grazing periodically, offering great shot opportunities every few steps along the trail. This was a very real scenario that happened to me. I'll save my answer for now, but I'd sure like to know what you folks think.
So, the shot is 25 yards, right? If the angle was right (broadside, more or less), and the animals weren't aware of me, I'd take that shot, maybe even out to 30 yds.
I'll preface by saying I've never hunted elk. One day I will. I imagine their vitals are larger and those that hunt them are good at that modest range, but I'm not. With those conditions at 20 yards, yes. But my wheel house right now is 15-17. Thats what I shoot most at and until that range becomes a fiat accompli I will restrict myself to that. More to the point, "ethics" are intrinsically linked to individual skill(s) in my opinion.
If the shot is 25yds, and I'm feeling like I can do it, I'm flinging. Anytime I have been elk hunting, I have extensively practiced out to 30yds, and felt like I was ready at that distance, if the circunstances were right. I have yet to shoot an elk. I have passed shots at deer at under 15yds because something was just not right!
Ethical limits are different for everyone, depending on their own knowledge of their own abilities.
Bisch
I messed up and forgot to say that the shot was 50 yards.
Depends on how I felt about the shot at that time. The two times I've been elk hunting, I practiced out to 50 on an elk target and could make the shot consistently.
Ok, I would have to change my vote then! I voted "Fling" but would not if the shot was 50yds!
I had this happen in New Zealand earlier this year. I put the super sneak on a really big red stag. It took me over 3hrs and I got to 18yds. He was lying down looking away from me with no good shot. I decided to wait till he got up. Well, a while later a couple of fallow does came running thru right in front of him and he jumped up. I was starting to draw when he turned and saw me. He bolted down into a gully, came up the other side, and stopped perfectly broadside. I came to full draw, and all I could think about was how many things could go wrong if I let that arrow go. I let down and watched as he slipped over the top of the ridge! I do not regret that decision, as I know the odds of it working were slim, and the last thing I wanted, was a wounded and unrecovered animal.
Bisch
I read that the shot was 50 yard in the initial post.
Ethical or not does not even enter into if but a lot of other things do. Ethical connotes other peoples limitations and opinions. Truth is what are the qualifications of the hunter, attitude of animals, ect and most of all do you feel good about the shot or are you forcing it.
God bless, Steve
Ethical or not does not even enter into if but a lot of other things do. Ethical connotes other peoples limitations and opinions. Truth is what are the qualifications of the hunter, attitude of animals, ect and most of all do you feel good about the shot or are you forcing it.
God bless, Steve
50 yards is too far for me.
Way too far for more but there's no question that the arrow would do its job at that distance.
I just don't practice at that distance. I am confident that if I had two years to practice distances longer than 30 I could do it. But as I sit right now no way. Great question. I am sure there are people on here who could cleanly kill that animal and my hat is off to them!
I used to shoot at 70 yards all the time, after awhile 50 yards seems a bit easier. Range estimation becomes more important at these ranges and a couple feet makes a big difference.
I voted no but that's because I know I can't shoot accurately out to 50. If you can I have no problem with you doing it.
At 50 yards to much can happen in the time it takes an arrow from a traditional bow to get there. So no fling here. No wind means the shot will be heard.
They'll never hear the arrow coming off my Sunset Hill. I'd put some wood in the air!
I'd have to pass. If they were at 25, I wouldn't even think about it. 50, yards, no. My rule is that, if I have to think about it, then the answeres No.
I kill that elk. No doubt, I take the shot.
Situations like this happen to me and my crew ALL the time. I voted no. Has nothing to do with being able to make that shot - most of us could.
Cory<><
<-----------------<<<<<
could I hit the elk yes probably. but would I take the shot no way. I do not shoot hoping to hit. I shoot only high probability shots at under 25 yards or not at all.
No way for me.
Stick bow hunting is more about how close we get to the game rather than how far we shoot at it. If that 50 yards elk is a survival issue then yes I shoot at it but if it is sportsman bowhunting then, no way. Anyway I never saw any elk in our backcountry here :D
50 yards?...I am surprised some would even consider it...
My answer depends on too many variables...most of which are internal. Abstain.
50 yards?!?!?!?!
Thats a par 3 for me!
I have been in a situation similar to that. Only difference was he was on alert, quartering away. Distance was around thirty+ yards and moving away.
I can't judge what shot others should or should not take, but wonder when you start shooting at 50 yards, how much movement the animal could take between the time you shoot and the time the arrow arrives.
I didn't shoot.
Effective range is different for everyone. This year it was 30-35 for me on elk with my heavy arrows. I had three chances at 40-50 yards and did not take them...next time I'll shoot lighter arrows and a more efficient 2 blade head for better down range flight. I'm accurate enough for elk out to 40 with practice and 500 grain arrows.
I'd take the shot
I've passed on great bull elk a lot closer than 50 yards in decent conditions. It's gotta be just right. I don't want the nightmare of wounding an animal that "I should have known better" about launching an arrow at. I'll go 30 all day though...
No, because every time I shoot that far I lose an arrow!
25 yards and under for me.
QuoteTruth is what are the qualifications of the hunter, attitude of animals, ect.... and most of all do you feel good about the shot or are you forcing it.
You said a mouth full here brutha....
There are a lot of archers that are very competent at 50 yards and shoot those distances regularly. But it all boils down to the moment of truth like Steve stated above.... If you feel confident and conditions are right, i might very well take that shot myself..... By the same token.... i passed on two 25 yard shots last week on bulls, & had another at 7 yards and never dropped the string.....
Above all things we must use our own judgment when a shot presents itself, and live with the consequences of our actions......
You could be able to hit the bullseye every time at 50, but you would still be "chancing" that shot. At 50 yards, there isn't a bow made (especially a trad bow) that is fast enough to negate what the animal will do at the shot. Some say, the distance will make the noise factor and the "sixth sense" of the animal in close quarters minimal, but it's still out of YOUR control. A single step, even a half step can turn a great shot into a nightmare. You can't control that. And elk are TOUGH to bring down, especially if hit badly....hard to follow up too.
Patience for the bowhunter is a better skill to "hone" than shooting skills sometime. A better shot may develop...wait for it! That's my choice.
There is alot of interest in this topic. I thought real hard as the herd passed by and passed the shot myself. I know just where to put my arrow tip at that range and I killed my deer last year a 40, but I opted to pass. I'm not sorry I made that choice. I came home that afternoon and shot 3 practice broadheads into the deer shape w/ vital ring on my block target. At 50 yards with no warm up I put 2/3 into the vitals. I can't say that I wouldn't have put 2 out of 6 or 5 out of 6 as I only shot three. No matter what I did or did not do, the experience made my season.
25 and I'm shooting. 30 and I'm shooting (elk). 50 and I'm waiting and hoping they come closer.
I practiced out to 45 yards this year and was able to hit a (elk) kill zone cutout each time, but no group at all. That was great practice but not good enough to try in real life.
Too much can happen in the time it takes my arrows to get there.
ChuckC
I personally would not take a shot of that distance, that is why I voted No Fling. However, if you regularly practice at 50 yards and greater and feel comfortable with the shot, by all means Fling! I've seen Ricky Welch kill a lot of deer, hogs and turkey at 50+ yards.
Bill
I imagine that for every shot that would be successfully pulled off at this distance, dozens would be messed up badly with a lot of gut shot animals. At almost every 3D shoot you go to, there is a novelty target at this sort of distance. Damn few good shots are seen.
I'll have to change my vote, too. With my bows, 50 yards, is just too far. It's not the accuracy, that's the problem, it's the amount of time it takes my arrow to travel 50 yards.
I've always considered my range with my traditional bows to be roughly half of what it is when I used a compound (way back in the last century). So, in my mind, an equivalent shot to a 50 yard trad shot would be a 100 yard compound shot. Would I take a 100 yard shot at an elk with a compound? Absolutely not, even though I'd be more accurate at 100 with a compound, than I am at 50 with a bare trad bow.
Again, though, it's not necessarily the accuracy that is the biggest problem with long shots. Let's say that you are going to take a 50 yard shot at a broadside, stationary elk. At the moment of release, that elk decides to take a single step. By the time your arrow reaches your intended target, the impact point would likely be out of the vitals.
If your bow shoots around 170 fps, it will take your arrow around .88 seconds to travel 50 yards. In reality, that is a lot of time. Plenty of time for even the casual step of an elk.
I certainly can't speak for others, but when I committed to using a trad bow, I willingly accepted the limitations that come with it. Actually, it's more like I embraced the limitations. I'm okay with letting animals walk that I could have cleanly killed with my compound.
I can hit pretty good most of the time at that distant . But me and a big bull elk I would be nervous as heck and have a hard time picking a spot at 15 yards.
I would certainly consider taking that shot if I were in the situation described. I voted FLING.
I would have to change my vote too. I thought the shot was only 25 yards.
Mark Baker said it perfectly. The target that some may hit consistently at 50 yards can't take a sudden step for a bite of grass while the arrow is on the way, an elk can.
I am with the too many variables crowd. I used to target shoot competitively out to 90 meters.
A target is a totally different world than real life. A million things can happen after your release that have nothing to do with your accuracy.
Too far for me. I'll hit the mushroom that is in a fixed position right behind the elk all day long (or I used to be able to).
But the moving animals can do anything. Even a sneeze can ruin it.
There's no such thing as a "sure thing" on an animal. Deer can practically turn inside-out even at close range. 50 yds adds a variable, but if you wait for a perfect, fool-proof shot...you are never going to take a shot.
That said, I've passed on deer that were very close because the situation wasn't right. For me to take a 50 yd shot, everything would have to feel right...but if it did, I'd take it.
I'd also add that attitudes will vary some between people who get to spend an entire season hunting elk every year and the cost is minimal vs. people who might get to go for a few days once or twice in a lifetime and spend thousands of dollars to make it happen.
Last thought...where do you draw the line? What's the difference in an "iffy" shot at a squirrel, or rabbit, or carp, or gar, or stingray, or whitetail, or elk? As far as squirrel, or rabbit, or carp, or gar, or stingrays...I've missed more than I've hit. I dare say pretty much anyone who's hunted them has. Should we wait on a more perfect shot on these also? Why or why not? Just something to mull over.
No way Jose. A club we shoot has an elk at exactly 40 yards (its set on a field course with a marker) and we don't do so hot on it so a live elk in the field would be a very poor percentage shot for me. I once passed on a trophy whitetail at 32 yards but I was in a poor position and he was alerted.
I shot Field Archery out to 80yds for many yrs and since getting my Covert Hunter have gone back to practicing at longer distances. It's easier for me to be accurate with at longer distances so I take advantage of it.
I'd take the shot at an Elk size animal with large kill zone. Back before compounds during Field Round days 50yds was not such a long shot. It's still not to me. Bout 55 to 60yds they start getting far to me.
Since we are giving our opinion, I have taken a lot of deer with a bow. A lot can happen even at 30 and under, to me bowhunting is about getting close. So for me no, ymmv
I took up the Traditional bow to hunt not shoot 50 yards to far for me.
5,10,15,20,25 I'm in.......50 no way. If that elk takes a step at the shot.....I went from a kill to center punching him in the butt, 50 is way to far for me.
Too far for me
Yup....even on my best day....too many variables.Risky biz...
I had three different opportunities at three different bulls this season on public land in CO all under 22 yards. Two of them were monsters. I did not even shoot as I never had perfectly clear shots. I would not even consider 50 yards. Everything would have to be absolutely perfect for me to take a 30 yard shot. I did not kill an elk this year but I have no regrets. It was a great season.
Just laughing at the number of times I have deleted what I have typed before posting. Carry on.
Even if I could consistently hit a "pie Plate" (which I cannot) at 50 yards, My slow bow could allow for the animal to take several steps before the arrow can reach him, this would be the difference of a heart shot or back leg hit. I would pass unless I have an Indian Tracker to do the dirty work....
Just kidding, I couldn't bring myself to make an Indian get dirty.
Pretty good thread.
If 50 yards is too far for an elk, is it too far for a coyote too?
I once killed a caribou at 35 yards off my knees. I was shooting a 65 pound longbow and cedar arrows. The bull was with a migrating herd and all were walking steadily past me when I took the shot. I remember it clearly. I wished they were closer but with no warning the green light came on in my mind and suddenly the bull had an arrow in the back of his ribs angling forward. I went full auto-instinctive and it happened fast.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/dillbilly/Realitycheck_1.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/dillbilly/media/Realitycheck_1.jpg.html)
I don't advocate longer shots and don't believe I've killed anything beyond 20 yards in a dozen years. To balance things, I can attest to many shots on game by myself and others...shots of 25 yards and under...which did not produce the anticipated results. Some of these were shots under 15 yards. Still, I much prefer a close shot of 10 yards or under if possible. This is what happens when you combine a very large target and 6 yards of shooting space:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/dillbilly/Alaska2011165.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/user/dillbilly/media/Alaska2011165.jpg.html)
50 yards is almost a full second of flight time...even an elk that is just moving naturally without being spooked can move a long ways in one second.
Makes an archers accuracy a moot point.
QuoteOriginally posted by Manitoba Stickflinger:
Thats a par 3 for me!
Hahaha, come on Ryan, you would birdie that one every time!
In that situation I hope I'd wait for the better % shot by the water hole,if elk are 50 yards and calm I assume wind is in your favor.The water hole is more than likely where they will meander around to,wait for the shot to happen.
90# doe at 20 most folk would take all day long.
The vitals on an elk are 4 times that large....and they don't have the quickness of a deer.
Interesting scenario I'll say that.
If you are going to take a 50 yard shot, the question is are you that confident, or desperate.
If i am confident i can make the shot then i take it,whether archery, firearms, or pool.
It's been mentioned in an earlier post, but it is either a "red light" or a "green light". I don't estimate distance, as i don't use a formal aiming system.
I have had a bull elk at what later measured out to be 11 yards that was a red light, and a mule deer buck that was green light that later measured 35 yards.
I practice all year round over a wide variety of distances, and all i know is i have WAY more red light moments than green light moments in the field.
Just went to vote...the word 'fling' caused me not to vote. No offense made, hope none taken, but the word 'fling' is not something I do with an arrow.
Like I said, no offense, just not a word I associate with shooting my bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
90# doe at 20 most folk would take all day long.
The vitals on an elk are 4 times that large....and they don't have the quickness of a deer.
Interesting scenario I'll say that.
X 2
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
90# doe at 20 most folk would take all day long.
The vitals on an elk are 4 times that large....and they don't have the quickness of a deer.
Interesting scenario I'll say that.
X 2 [/b]
x3
Weren't bowhunters shooting that far 40-50 years ago with traditional tackle? Jack Howard, Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Jerry "Shaggie" Gentellalli... and my own father had many kills with his Jack Howard Gamemaster Jet on Catalina Island goats at over 50 yards.
For me personally, I would not. I do not regularly practice at that range. I'm with most of the guys here. Each shot is different. Just because I'm comfortable at a given range does not mean I'm going to shoot if the animal is within that distance. great post
I have only been on 2 elk hunts so far. Before the first one I was practicing regularly out to 60 yards, and doing some longer stump shooting during the hunt. With the way I was shooting, and after getting to see elk behavior, I would absolutely have taken the shot described. I didn't get as much practice in this year, but found that I was still shooting pretty well. I can't say that I would have taken the shot this year unless it absolutely felt right, but if it was 40 yards this year, I definitely would have. You really can't apply the same criteria for shooting a whitetail to shooting an elk. Different size vitals and behavior on the shot. Even with a close shot at a seemingly relaxed whitetail deer, there are no guarantees what will happen at the time of release. And I say this as someone who would prefer not to spend their time on fruitless tracking jobs. I have a pretty high percentage of game recovery relative to arrows released.
I wouldn't know a fifty yard shot if it walked up and bit me in the ass... before the fact. I learn how far the shot was when I step it off afterward.
I do know if it's a long shot or a short shot and whether I can make it or I can't. I guess it's part of the "instinct" of the shot for me. It comes from thousands if not tens of thousands of shots over a lifetime of shooting.
I know that doesn't help answer the question, but it's an honest answer and the way I perceive the issue.
As far as what an animal will or won't do or can or can't do between the time the shot is made and the arrow hits, I don't even figure that into the equation.
I've had deer coincidentally move at the instant of the shot and turn a perfect shot into a gut shot at very close range.
I've hunted areas where the deer react so predictably and violently at the sound of the shot that there was no hope of hitting the critter unless the arrow was aimed to "miss" the deer... at ranges well under twenty yards.
Personally I don't ever care to hunt there again because of that.
In closing I guess I think a bowhunter should sharpen his hunting and shooting skills and use the best judgement he can muster in every situation.
Nice post Charlie..... :campfire:
Too far for me.
I do not practice shooting at extreme range and more importantly I don't practice range estimation at those distances in the field. I am confident I could get the alignment correct but the drop not so confident. I would not shoot.
My backyard deer target is 50 yards from my back porch. Every session I shoot 6 arrows at it from the porch. I hit it several times each time but the least bit of overdraw or underdraw will cause a miss not to mention a slight pull. 50 yards is too far to be 100% sure for me and I'm an old time field archery shooter too.
Charlie and his great amount of experience nailed it. I too have had very close shots turn sour. Had a cow elk jump when she was 2 yards from me when I shot at her heart. Hit her in the neck. I was blessed in that she died within a hundred yards but that experience alone tells me that distance doesn't make a lot of difference with animal reaction. In fact I have had less string jumping ect past 25 yards on shots than under 25 yards.
God bless, Steve
I would shoot but not in desperation but because I know I would make the shot. Learning to shoot longer range does not make you unethical it makes you a better shot. i killed a pig this year at 31 yards. A shot I would normally pass on but there was no getting closer. I reminded myself that I had been killing the 3d pig every time at that range so I took the shot with confidence and drilled the hog. At the 3d range near my house I kill the elk and caribou targets at 60 yards everytime. Very rare do I not. We sometimes miss at 20 you know.
I would not go on a hunt out west and let an animal I want walk because someone else thinks he is too far. If I know I can make the shot I`m gonna shoot. If I miss or worse it won`t be because I was flinging a hail Mary it will be because I just missed a shot I felt confident in making. It happens at any range. RC
Charlie and RC both hit the nail aquare on the head!!!
Bisch
Big game like deer and elk are popular with the public and are typically managed with considerable public money and support. It's an expensive undertaking and most supporters take a dim view of abusing big game hunting privileges at their expense.
Some states and a good segment of the public perceive longbows and recurves as primitive hunting weapons, with built-in self-restricting limitations. So, openly posting intent to use them on animals at ranges that MOST would consider excessive for that type of weapon, even if the user 'thinks' they are skilled enough, IMO damages the concept that longbows and recurves might deserve allowances relative to compounds, crossbows, firearms and special seasons. It also tarnishes the general perception (IMO, an accurate one) that primitive bows are often the main choice of hunters looking to maximize fair chase rather than compromise the chase to their advantage. I.e., for these simple weapons bow hunting is by-and-large considered a close-range sport.
In effect, you're probably not doing the rest of us any favors if you practice and support the idea that using simple trad hunting gear...bows and arrows of reasonable hunting weight, on game animals at 50 yards, is a good personal choice or even a marginally realistic undertaking for successful and responsible hunting. The risks and potential shortfalls are just too great.
TSP must stand for The Shame Police. If you see any old bowhunting video footage, 50 yards was not an incredibly long shot. I am very happy that I posted something that many people had something good to say about, and I posed a question that everyone had their own great answer to. I did not, however, ask the question to have these answers whipped with the finger of shame. Your post only cast a disparaging shadow over a chunk of the survey participants by wielding nothing more than a big, foam, finger of shame.
Terry Green: You do not know me, but I enjoy using lively language when I write something. Although "fling" may conjure up images of careless archery I only mean to impart my voice into what I write.
Great post everyone. I'm glad that so many have joined the fun. I did not get an elk, but I don't regret not taking the shot. It didn't feel right. If it would have I would have. I had fun and can't dwell in hypotheticaland; I'm already looking forward to next year, or next weekend for a grouse at 100 yards.
I know trad shooters that are better shots at 40 yards than a lot of trad shooters are at 20. If the poor shot guy wounds one at 20 nobody sez much. but if the guy that shoots 5" groups at 40 yards wounds one at 40 the world falls apart. RC
I am wholeheartedly in Robert Carter's camp on this one. I shared elk camp with a guy that was hitting tennis ball sized targets off the top of stumps at 30 yards, and hitting elk vital targets at near 100 yards this year. Then again, he has been killing animals for a lot of years and practices a lot at varying distances. It is not sound logic to assess your own level of confidence and abilities, and then extrapolate those same limitations to others under the guise of ethics.
The problem is that too many things COULD go wrong, that are completely out of your control. A calf gets startled by a bee (that happened to me) could decide to bolt in front of the bull- yes...your arrow will take that long to get there. The bull could see a tasty something and take one step in the time it takes your arrow to reach him at 50 yards...bullseye becomes a gut shot.
Boils down to how much respect you have for the animal.
Can it be done? Of course. Should it be done. That's up to you and you alone. I practiced daily at 37 yards while preparing for several elk trips....and had a double robin hood doing it in '99. Would I have taken THAT shot? You bet. Fortunately, that year I shot my bull at a whopping 5 yards I think.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
Boils down to how much respect you have for the animal.
QUOTE]
x2
The average adult bull elk's walking stride is 30 to 60 inches.
At 50 yards, being a good shot has very little to do with it.
The distance that even a relaxed grazing elk can cover in just one step has everything to do with it.
They have plenty of time to take that step long before the arrow gets there.
Unless there are some very specific conditions in play, I don't take the shot.
Kinda in line with Charlies post I think ..I believe a 50 yard shot at a relaxed and unaware Elk is more ethical than a 20 yard shot at a 150" buck at a feeder in Texas if you are talking about what the animal will do at string release.considering the guy shooting can hit what he is shooting at with both shots on a still target.It all can be argued but I would shoot regardless. I hunt to kill stuff and would put my shot recovery ratio against anyone on this forum or any compound forum. RC
So now the jabs at the feeder setters will start?
Ethics are in the eye of the beholder.
Could I make the 50 yard shot? Absolutely.
Could I guarantee the elk would not decide to take a step before the arrow gets there? Absolutely not.
Can I judge the reaction of an excited deer at 15 to 20 yards? Absolutely, but will generally pass on those shots also, and wait for the deer to relax, or at least look away.
RC, you're a great hunter. No doubt about that, and you have MUCH respect from me.
I too hunt to kill stuff.
In several decades of stickbow hunting, and many animals arrowed I've failed to recover only three. One of those was from a bad shot. The other two were because the ramrods of the hunt would not allow me to do what it took to recover the animal, and one of those I could see the animal laying dead about 250ft below me.
For me, I try to consider if the shot I'm about to take is a high percentage shot. By high percentage, I mean a shot I can make 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 times. Each archer must evaluate their own ability and make their own decision.
QuoteOriginally posted by BowDiddle:
So now the jabs at the feeder setters will start?
I did not read it that way...not at all. However, it is a fact that deer around a feeder are skiddish and do react more violently that those that aren't on a very high percentage level compared. No jab if you are stating facts.
So, lets not read something into a statement and start down another road that will end up getting us no where.
Again, just as posted earlier, please take no offense and don't read anything into what I said. I've hunted in TX and know myself, I too have killed all 3 of my TX bucks (and several does) by aiming at the dirt below them 3 inches behind the elbow.
Even at 12 yards I aimed under one buck. When you shoot an animal 12-15 yards and you are 15-20 feet up in the air and the entrance and exit wounds are level AND you are aiming under them.....there CAN be an argument as to whether or not its ethical to shoot a bow in that type of hunting set up even at 12 yards.
Now, how many favors am I doing by posting this?
See where I'm going? Animals can move at 12 yards or closer, and they can move at 50....shall we all abandon our bows for claymores?
Nah.....then we wouldn't have bowhunting, and get to make our own choices, hopefully the right ones at any give time, and not give up our freedoms.
I'll play devil's advocate for a minute here.
At 20 yd's and under, an elk is more apt to see you, to smell you, to hear you, to hear the string drop. Other animals that may notice you are more apt to put the elk on alert; all of which could cause unpredictable behavior resulting in a bad shot. Therefore, there's no way any ethical hunter would even consider taking a shot at an elk under 20 yds.
On top of the variables listed for elk, at 20 yds and under a deer may drop, jump, spin, bolt, kick...or just stand there when the string is released. There's no way to accurately predict what they might do. Again, no way any ethical hunter could consider taking a shot at such a short distance.
Of course I don't believe anyone lacks ethics for taking a shot at under 20 yds, but the points are valid if you want to argue them. I actually saw an article years ago where a famous bow hunter made that argument about shooting at deer.
A 50 yds shot can add to the variables, but it can also subtract from them. There will always be variables beyond our control. Depends on which ones you are comfortable with as to whether or not you take the shot.
As I said before, if we were to wait on the absolutely perfect, fool-proof, can't miss shot then we would never take a shot.
Not to say we should take risky shots hoping to get lucky, but as has been noted: some can shoot more accurately at 50 yds than others at 20.
Why is it more ethical for the lousy shot to make an attempt at 20? Why is it more ethical to take a shot at squirrels, rabbits, carp, stingray, coyotes, pigs, etc. vs. elk? Either you are trying to kill it, or you aren't. Right?
Given my current skill and confidence in it, it would be unadvisable (and perhaps unethical) for ME to take such a shot. However, I don't think that applies to others better prepared, if the situation presents itself favorably.
I don't understand all this talk of "ethical this and ethical that"... aren't we a humans predators? How ethical is Mother Nature? I'd say Mother Nature is an "unethical" bitch! Does the mountain lion question ethics? No. Or does a lion cub ask how did you KILL this elk; heck no they just eat. Aren't we trying to fill our freezers and feed ourselves? I know that is my end goal! I just choose to do it with a bow and arrow.
Ethics are human imposed feelings. And to me killing a fawn deer with spots is unethical, not trying to kill an elk at 50 yards when you have complete confidence in yourself and equipment.
For the record I said I wouldn't take the shot. And not because I thought some given distance means it is unethical.
I go hunting; not killing. Nothing is a 100% given while hunting.
Not sure why we are arguing this point. The question asks what YOU would do, not what should be done by everybody. Some folks can shoot that far, others can't. I can't, as stated earlier. Some can, but won't, for whatever THEIR reasons are.
Course, I just recently watched a high tech compound friend miss a broadside, standing still bull elk THREE times at 30 - 40 yards ( he used a rangefinder for the first shot, 31 yards). He can hit a tennis ball every single time at 30 yards in practice, and nearly every time at 40 yards, I watched him do it.
Whatever
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
QuoteOriginally posted by BowDiddle:
So now the jabs at the feeder setters will start?
I did not read it that way...not at all. [/b]
Nor did I.
My point was more in the form of a question, as in - since some others have chosen to condemn the long shots, would they also start condemning the wired up animal shots?
I voted No on taking the shot, and explained why I would not take it under most circumstances, but I do not condemn, or even disagree with those who chose to take it.
It's not my place to judge other hunter's decisions, and I won't be the one to suffer for it when they make the bad decisions, at least not in the short term anyway. We all live & learn, or at least I hope we do.
The same argument could be made for hogs...they are the most unstable target I know of, especially in a group....I've drawn on one as many as 8 times before I shot. Maybe we shouldn't hunt them since they are so fidgety and their movements are so quick, frequent and unpredictable......
Nah, we should hunt the heck out of them....
Just more food for thought.....
Great thread BTW. Nice to see it stay civil in the TradGang spirit.
:campfire:
I am not that gifted.. 25 maybe 30 yards tops!
Agree completely with what's been said about close shots having their own risks...sometimes they don't work out BECAUSE of close ranges and animal senses. A 15 yard shot might tend toward better accuracy than a 40 yarder, but accuracy is far from the only factor which affects the outcome of shots on game. We fool ourselves into thinking closer is always better...I do it too.
I hear the word 'respect' used, and I understand it this way: I have enough respect for the sport of hunting to make the best possible shot and follow-up possible, whenever I decide to take a shot. Our bowhunting history and heritage is brimming with bowmen who routinely lobbed arrows at big game at distances that most compound guys wouldn't try today. Were they phenomenal shooters or optimistic hopefuls? You decide. Was respect a factor in their minds? You decide. How do you see the animal and choose your shots? You decide.
QuoteOriginally posted by CA BOWHUNTER:
I took up the Traditional bow to hunt not shoot 50 yards to far for me.
First off let me apologize for my statement no one complained about it I readied so many more response on it I think I was too quick to spout off I think it show my ignorance. After all it is about the journey and teaching and I do learn a lot from all of you.
I had the same problem with the word "fling" in the poll. Says a lot. I voted no for multiple reasons but one was because of that word. I'm sure the poster meant nothing by it. Neither can I stand the world "stick" in bowhunting discussions. But I parse...
The last time I took a shot at 50 yards or more with a recurve was my first year at Purdue in the fall of 1973. I was on the apple orchard archery range. I was killing 13-lined ground squirrels. One caused me to end up on top of an open grassy knoll. There was an aluminum can 70 yards away. I took the shot. Nailed the can and messed up my fletching on the pass through. Of course that can wasn't going to move, I wasn't going to spend a day or more tracking a bad hit, and hit or miss it wasn't going to prey on my mind for a day or 10,000.
I have a very difficult to draw 2015 KY Archery Cow permit (took me 9 years to draw). I had hoped to practice at 40 to make 30 easy. Bicep tendonitis for 8 months has prevented the amount of practice that would be required. I'm 75% on the Rinehart elk target at 30 yards. I'm 100% at 20. So, I'll be shooting 20 yards or less if I get a chance. Even at that range the outcome is far from guaranteed...for anyone.
I won't develop a new effective range on an animal I respect. But hey, it is your and my hunt and as long as one doesn't portray a bad outcome, that may have resulted from a uninformed decision, as normal in bowhunting, I'm fine with it.
Nope, I don't respect em all either...coyotes get no such quarter.
My feeder comment was directed at "wired" deer not feeder hunting. Its legal and If I went to Texas I would do it. Its legal here in South Ga and I have killed deer that way on private land. I hunt mostly on public land and its not legal there.
There are two skills every bowhunter must have to gather meat. One, you must have woodsman skills to get you close enough for the bow. Two, you must be able to shoot as far as your woodsman skills get you to deer. If one is lacking the other must make up for it if you intend on killing stuff. A very successful hunter is good at both and eats good.
One other thing... I know a ton of "Traditional" bowhunters that may shoot 30 arrows a month and are content with just walking around in the woods with their back quiver and fedora hat on. They seldom kill anything but they are happy and thats all good and they been at it for 20 years. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is these fellas are real quick to give advise on broadheads,arrows,is this poundage to little for pigs...you get my point.We all make choices we have to live with but be sure to weigh the advise you receive on the internet...some of it could be weak. RC
One other thing... I know a ton of "Traditional" bowhunters that may shoot 30 arrows a month and are content with just walking around in the woods with their back quiver and fedora hat on. They seldom kill anything but they are happy and thats all good and they been at it for 20 years. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is these fellas are real quick to give advise on broadheads,arrows,is this poundage to little for pigs...you get my point.We all make choices we have to live with but be sure to weigh the advise you receive on the internet...some of it could be weak. RC [/QB][/QUOTE]
Ain't that the truth RC! You sir, are the real deal.
there are lots of bow hunters that can consistently make clean kill shots at 50 yrds or more. I'm not one of them, but if I honed my shooting to be confident at that distance I would take shots like that.
Blaino:I go hunting; not killing. Nothing is a 100% given while hunting.
Absolutely true: But I've seen some claims. One guy claimed to have killed over 100 animals and never wounded one.
That is either the luckiest man on earth or a fibber.
I have guided professionally, Killed several animals myself. Seen many many killed and with just about every weapon. Truth is I have seen as many wounded by rifle hunters as I have by bow hunters. Sorry to say that is quiet a few. My last guide hunt I was hunting four guys for rifle elk. I called and a large herd ran in from a distant aspen patch. Looked like a herd of horses coming toward us. There was at least 75 elk and I had positioned the hunters on the side of a draw I thought they would come through. They opened up when the herd was straight across from us and emptied their rifles. One large bull went down and one bull calf with little spikes. Blood trails going everywhere. It literally made me sick but I couldn.t stop it. We tracked several trails a long ways but found no lay downs and none leaving the herd. I went back next day and looked for birds from the end of blood and was able to find nothing.
That was my last time for guiding. I quit and never looked back.
Point is a lot of animals get wounded. As bow hunters I hope we all do our best to make that not happen.Butttttttttt, I learned many years ago to not go to pieces when it does. Read LBRs post if you haven't yet. It pretty well says it.
God bless, Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Mecredy:
there are lots of bow hunters that can consistently make clean kill shots at 50 yrds or more. I'm not one of them, but if I honed my shooting to be confident at that distance I would take shots like that.
I would disagree that there are lots of guys that can take an elk at 50 yards. Maybe a few but not many. Plus you better be shooting a pretty hefty bow to get penetration at that distance. My answer was "NO"
Should I have said there are around 127 guys that can consistently make clean kills shots at 50 yrds or more?
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Mecredy:
Should I have said there are around 127 guys that can consistently make clean kills shots at 50 yrds or more?
I'm not knocking anyone, but if there were a way to find out the numbers, I'd be willing to bet there are less than 10% of the people who visit this forum (or any other for that matter), that can pull off 50% of their shots in the kill zone of an elk at 50 yards. Very few practice to that distance.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
Agree completely with what's been said about close shots having their own risks...sometimes they don't work out BECAUSE of close ranges and animal senses. A 15 yard shot might tend toward better accuracy than a 40 yarder, but accuracy is far from the only factor which affects the outcome of shots on game. We fool ourselves into thinking closer is always better...I do it too.
I hear the word 'respect' used, and I understand it this way: I have enough respect for the sport of hunting to make the best possible shot and follow-up possible, whenever I decide to take a shot. Our bowhunting history and heritage is brimming with bowmen who routinely lobbed arrows at big game at distances that most compound guys wouldn't try today. Were they phenomenal shooters or optimistic hopefuls? You decide. Was respect a factor in their minds? You decide. How do you see the animal and choose your shots? You decide.
WELL SAID!!!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by BowDiddle:
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Mecredy:
Should I have said there are around 127 guys that can consistently make clean kills shots at 50 yrds or more?
I'm not knocking anyone, but if there were a way to find out the numbers, I'd be willing to bet there are less than 10% of the people who visit this forum (or any other for that matter), that can pull off 50% of their shots in the kill zone of an elk at 50 yards. Very few practice to that distance. [/b]
I am sure that it is less than 10%, but that is still alot, and those that do practice at further distances are better able to know their limitations than those that don't.
Well it was a good thread while it lasted now it's change direction it's now about percentage of hunters and now a question about Bow weight has changed the original intent of this thread....its now going to turn into an argument over stuff that's not even related.
BTW.....if a 50# bow won't kill an elk at 50 yards with a properly placed arrow we all need to put down our bows....no argument there.