So I have tried to bare shaft tune my bow but I cannot get it to correct. I am getting a point quite a bit to the right with 500 and also 400 spine full length 32" Carbon shafts. I use 125 grains up front so that is not the problem. I cannot go any lower with that. I have built out my side plate as well.
All of my fletched shafts whether 500 or 400 spine with either big or small fletching pretty much fly where I need them to. You would never know this without shooting bare shaft.
The bow is an A&H ACS 64" with a 14" riser that is 37lbs @ 28' if that matters any. I draw to 31 - 31.25" so it is 45lbs at my draw.
My question is how is it even possible that I am getting this crazy weak reading?
There is nearly no possible way the .400 spine arrows are not too stiff for 45#, esp if you are using a standard insert with a 125gr tip. I think it may be quite possible that there is something else going on in your shot that is causing a false result!
Bisch
Just shoot them with feathers and if they don't fly crazy and broadheads shoot fine then you're good to go.
Sometimes you can make yourself crazy with tuning.
If it helps I shoot a full length .500 put of all my 45 pound bows with 125 up front and they bareshaft perfect,
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
There is nearly no possible way the .400 spine arrows are not too stiff for 45#, esp if you are using a standard insert with a 125gr tip. I think it may be quite possible that there is something else going on in your shot that is causing a false result!
Bisch
First of all, you should not accept any advice from anybody unless they have owned, tuned, and shot these bows extensively. A&H bows are a different animal from your average bow. They are cut 3/16 of an inch past center, have extremely fast limbs, and require a stiffer shaft than other bows.
At your draw length, you would probably need to go to a .340 shaft, maybe a .300. I have a 46# and a 48#@28, my draw is 28" and I have to shoot GT .340 cut to 30.5" with 145 grain up front. I can not shoot .400 out of my 46# or my 48#. I have a 43# A&H that shoots my .400 cut to 29.5".
Your not going crazy, welcome to the world of A&H.
Im shooting 400 spine out of my 50 lb. big Jim buffalo.my arrows are cut to 29. I draw around 27 I have a 100 gr brass insert with a 200 gr. head. I got good bare shaft results as well as good paper tears. Bottom line for any tuning process is good BH flight.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. fingers:
Im shooting 400 spine out of my 50 lb. big Jim buffalo.my arrows are cut to 29. I draw around 27 I have a 100 gr brass insert with a 200 gr. head. I got good bare shaft results as well as good paper tears. Bottom line for any tuning process is good BH flight.
I have owned a Big Jim Buffalo, and currently own a Thunder Child. I'm telling you, these specs are not relevant to an A&H. Apples and Oranges.
Do this, go get yourself some 85 grain tips and I guarantee you, those shafts will fly like darts. So what will that tell you, you will either have to shorten your shafts or get a stiffer spine in order to increase your tip weight.
The shafts cannot be shortened! I need all 32" for drawing.
QuoteOriginally posted by gonefishing600:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
There is nearly no possible way the .400 spine arrows are not too stiff for 45#, esp if you are using a standard insert with a 125gr tip. I think it may be quite possible that there is something else going on in your shot that is causing a false result!
Bisch
First of all, you should not accept any advice from anybody unless they have owned, tuned, and shot these bows extensively. A&H bows are a different animal from your average bow. They are cut 3/16 of an inch past center, have extremely fast limbs, and require a stiffer shaft than other bows.
At your draw length, you would probably need to go to a .340 shaft, maybe a .300. I have a 46# and a 48#@28, my draw is 28" and I have to shoot GT .340 cut to 30.5" with 145 grain up front. I can not shoot .400 out of my 46# or my 48#. I have a 43# A&H that shoots my .400 cut to 29.5".
Your not going crazy, welcome to the world of A&H. [/b]
If this is true, then I have learned something new today! Never had any experience with that bow, but have had experience with a lot of others. There is not one I have had that would work. Like I said, I learn new stuff all the time. Thanks for being my teacher for the day!!!!
Bisch
A&H do indeed like stiffer shafts than most would ever think they need. I'm in the think you might need a full length .340 shaft camp, but might have to move up a little in tip weight and that ain't too bad a thing!
Skip the fast flight string and use double the silencers?
Oops, double post
I shot a 47# ACS and because they are cut past center I was shooting 340 ACC, full length
Let me add to the above post, when I was shooting 250 grain Tuff Heads, I was shooting 300 spine ACC
I have a 29.5" draw lenth
If you have built out the site window and also continue to lighten the point and bare shaft keeps getting worse, you are experiencing a false reading. Everyone has been trained to believe that nock right is stiff and left week (for rh shooter )...but what most don't realize is that a stiff shaft can kick right or left. If it is stiff enough that it hits the bow on the way by, it will kick the opposite direction. I even see near perfect bare shaft when the arrow straightened up after hitting riser.if you are shooting spines out of the normal, good chance you have a false reading.
Bigjim
If that's the case with A&H bows needing stiffer shaft, what shafts do people that shoot 60lb A&H use? 340 spine on a 46lb bow seems crazy. I couldnt get 340 eastons to tune to my 61lb recurve.
I think Big Jim is on to something. There is a simple test you could do to see if the arrow is bouncing off the riser. I've heard of folks using a grease pencil or lipstick to mark the backend of a bare shaft. Then see if you are getting a mark on the strike plate.
Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Gerardi:
If that's the case with A&H bows needing stiffer shaft, what shafts do people that shoot 60lb A&H use? 340 spine on a 46lb bow seems crazy. I couldnt get 340 eastons to tune to my 61lb recurve.
Most of them shoot the Dangerous Game 250 spine cut down. ACS and long draw lengths add a whole new layer of difficulty to arrow choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My wife shoots .400 spine almost full length from her 40ish#@27" draw ACS recurve with 250gr up front, add 4" of draw and she would have to come way way down in point weight and hers is a Dryad not A&H so it's not cut way past center!
Those are impressive specs..I never would of expected that to be the case.
I too beleive a 340 spine would have better flight
I have a Dryad ACS RC 48@31" and it takes 340 spine for best results.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Gerardi:
If that's the case with A&H bows needing stiffer shaft, what shafts do people that shoot 60lb A&H use? 340 spine on a 46lb bow seems crazy. I couldnt get 340 eastons to tune to my 61lb recurve.
.250
I always have to shoot stiffer than usual arrows out of my bows. It may be a false reading, etc, but its the only thing I can do to get perfect flight with broadheads and fieldtips.
I have a thunderchild that is 52@28 and i draw to 29.5. I have to shoot .350 spined arrows. They are full length with 200 grain field tips and they fly like darts, naked and fletched!
I'm with you Bisch. Most of the recurves I've ever owned (predominantly Morrisons)were cut 3/16ths past center. I've never owned nor shot an ACS, but Bob used the design in his limbs for awhile. All have been in the 46-50# range and there's not one of them that that a .400/125gr. arrow wouldn't be too stiff for. Full length shafts usually required 200 grains or more for me to tame. Your mileage may vary.
If you have never owned or shot an A&H/ACS bow, you have to read this artical by DR. Ashby.
http://www.acsbows.com/ashbyarticle.html
well if you can not get it to tune , then you really have a problem .I have had 2 a&h bows . I can shoot a lot of arrows out of them .You did not say what arrows you use . gold tip 500 are 465 spine ,Easton spine better when new .did you spine your arrows . I have shot 15-35,35-55 gold tips no problem .
QuoteOriginally posted by grayfeather:
well if you can not get it to tune , then you really have a problem .I have had 2 a&h bows . I can shoot a lot of arrows out of them .You did not say what arrows you use . gold tip 500 are 465 spine ,Easton spine better when new .did you spine your arrows . I have shot 15-35,35-55 gold tips no problem .
What's your draw length????
Riser cut well past center, 31" draw and 32" shaft and both .500 and .400 fly weak bareshaft. If the .500 are hitting right of the .400 sounds like you need .340 spine.
I am a long draw as well. I have found that with my recurve I can get a shaft to tune and with my longbow (same maker) I get funky flight. For me it comes down to a form issue, but I think we long draws put a lot of flex into our bows and arrows when things are not just right. This however is my story and maybe not yours. I went down a trail of bareshaft tuning with others thinking erratic flight might just be a stiff arrow. (I have a 51# @31" Holmmade Goshawk bow that is 66" shooting 400 spine Beman Centershots that are 31.5" with 75gr inserts and 125 gr tips). This is a 3/16 from center bow. I shoot these same arrows bullet like out of my recurve by the same maker with very near the same specs. I tried light tips, other weak arrows, than those, and I tried 200gr tips (so with insertes that would be 275 up front)
I really have tried everything to limit tears, but for me when I had perfect form and probably better release the arrow flew better. I finally for myself knew that I have to leave it at decent flight. A man by the name Arne Moe who haunts around on here has said to me that with my long draw and my own personal form issues (he has seen me shoot) may with some bows have arrow flight issues. Am I or you a bad archer...probably not. I think there are just some bows, arrows and archers that give fits.
i have limited bow shooting experience and only recently started shooting so here is my take (for what its worth)
i have a long draw 31.5 in or so. i use 340 spine beman ics full length and a brass insert from 3 rivers with a 125 grain tip. all my shafts showed slight nock left. i use a trinity falcon takedown which is 53 lbs or so at my draw. i have set the brace height low at around 6.5 - 6.75 inches. the remedies suggested by the maker are increasing brace height to 7.5- 8 inches and reducing the arrow rest / shelf plate protrusion.
i think bracing the bow high will sort out the issue as the arrow will be off the string earlier.
only reason i have not done it is the fact that i have been hitting pretty much what i have been aiming at and don't want to muck it up.
i have to remember to focus on form and release right.
Reread Big Jim'post, good info there, If your adjusting for a weak shaft and it gets worse not better probably a false reading. Still think you need 340's
What shaft are you shooting I may have one I can send.
It may seem crazy how stiff your arrows are, but that's what I've experienced as well. I've found that the spine softens up quickly with a longer arrow. I've got about the same setup and here's what I'm using.
My recurve is 45# @ 30". I'm using a 340 Beman Centershot (full length, 31.5" I believe) with the 80-grain insert and a 125gr point. It bareshafts perfectly at 20 yards and paper tunes bullet holes at 10 feet.
To give another example, I've had people tell me that my next setup is too stiff, but again, bareshafts and paper tunes perfectly. Here are the stats.
The recurve is 34# @ 30". I'm using 2213 Easton XX75 arrows, full length (32.5") with 125gr points.
The arrow spine charts always recommend a weaker arrow, so I always start tuning with the spine above what is recommended.
QuoteOriginally posted by katman:
Reread Big Jim'post, good info there, If your adjusting for a weak shaft and it gets worse not better probably a false reading. Still think you need 340's
What shaft are you shooting I may have one I can send.
I have tried 500 Carbon Express Maxima Blue and 400 Easton Superlight. These both shot point right.
For the past 6 or 7 years I have shot Gold Tip and I have a ton of them but they are all 29" or 30" and .400 or .500.
My draw length went from 28" to 31.25" after I took Rod Jenkins shooting clinic. That caused me to switch from a 50 lbs at 28" ACS to a 37 lbs @ 28" to give me 45 lbs at 31".
I always felt like this bow could shoot anything and had great results or so it seemed. The arrows were always fletched so I never really saw any problems. .500 and .400 ll looked fine.
I really don't want to buy more arrows and go to .340 or .300.
Yep 31 inch draw a a pretty substantial power stroke! Why not trace them bet there is somebody around who would swap you for your 500 or 400's and big Jim a has super good deals on blems right now.
Bottom line, don't go by numbers go by Your results only. I have always needed a stiffer spine. Go with what tunes perfectly for you and your shooting style".......
"I really don't want to buy more arrows and go to .340 or .300" "The arrows were always fletched so I never really saw any problems" Does not mean they were not there.
3 1/4" draw length increase is a lot more expansion. I gained 1 3/4" after Rod's class a few years back.
Shoot field tip and broadhead tipped arrows and see were they group out to 30 yds, if they group on target great, if not I think you need to try .340. You may not want to buy new arrows but selling off the shorter ones you can not use due to increase in draw length will help offset price. I can send you a bareshaft .340 axis with 100gr brass hit insert full length if you would like, really curios to get to the bottom of this. PM your address if interested.
Also could try a test kit of arrows, http://search.3riversarchery.com/buy/arrows-shafting/arrow-shafting/carbon-shafting
Katman,
PM will be coming to you. Thanks!!
Well, the increase is because I "learned" to shoot 25 years ago with the Asbel method. I think that has done more harm than good in the world of traditional hunting archery. That hunched over style is power robbing and not as consistent.
I had same thing happen to me, thank the heavens I took Rod's class.
QuoteOriginally posted by katman:
3 1/4" draw length increase is a lot more expansion. I gained 1 3/4" after Rod's class a few years back.
WOW! That is exactly what I was thinking! I gained about 1 1/2" of DL after attending Rod's clinic. 3 1/4" is almost mind boggling!!!
Good luck getting your arrow tuning down!
Bisch
Two comments here...
First, I have a long draw, and find that I have some weird spine issues when tuning. Shafts do tend to show weaker than they should be.
Second, I had an ACS bow for several months, and I did not find it astronomically different than others. Nice bow, for sure. But if they are so hyper-powerful, how is it that we haven't been reading this all along in threads on TradGang? I've been a member for several years, and this is the first time I remember anyone saying that the ACS requires special tuning considerations.
Listen to the bow. I've got a #51 that like 340s and a #53 that likes 200 grains on a 2016. Same maker of bow and strings. It doesn't make sense but they both flat shoot when tuned!