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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: sveltri on September 02, 2015, 09:23:00 AM
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I bought a KME over the summer and basically threw it on the shelf until it was time to sharpen my Cutthroat broad heads for elk season. It was so simple there was no reason for concern, until I actually tried to use the dang thing. Long story short after several failed attempts to get these heads sharp I called Ron. A seven minute conversation with a really cool guy my BH's are now razor sharp. If you are struggling like I was don't waste anymore time pick up the phone and call Ron!!
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Ron, and KME knife sharpeners, are as good as gold!
Bisch
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I bought one to sharpen Simmons head and while I did get them sharp, it isn't quite as fool proof as o would like.
Easily takes me over 10 mins per heads. With 5 to sharpen its easy to sit there and waste and hour and still not have then as sharp as I would like
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I have the knife sharpener :thumbsup:
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Daniel,
I believe...(scary thought) that KME now has some gizmo to make curved head sharpening more better...
You might give them a call since it sounds as though you're struggling some...
I think the jist of it is that "don't suffer in silence"...sometimes a quick call is all it takes...
I know, real men don't ask for directions when traveling or how to use a tool...been there, got the t-shirt and egg on my kisser to go with it...but Ron squared me away too like the original poster and what I was doing that I was dead sure was right, was NOT! Doh! :knothead:
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Originally posted by DanielB89:
I bought one to sharpen Simmons head and while I did get them sharp, it isn't quite as fool proof as o would like.
maybe you should call ron----
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KME is a great system and Ron's customer service is outstanding. The jewel stick for Simmons heads works very well I use his knife sharpener for all my other 2-blades. Wicked sharp.
D.P.
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I have everything to do the simmons. Just takes a LONG time to get them like I want them to be, and I have not gotten them "razor sharp" yet. I have gotten them sharp, but not sharp enough to make my hair pop off..
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Takes a long time to get the 185 Grizzlies sharp. They are very thick and any stage of the sharping with the KME is takes a lot of time. It will get them very very sharp if you have the patience.
I can get them almost as sharp with a file and strop in 1/10th the time, but have been putting in my time with the KME. It takes 1/2 hour to an hour to get one crazy sharp. It's hard to get the tip and the back heel perfect.
I would pay extra to have the grizzlies honed better.
Tedd
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Originally posted by DanielB89:
I have everything to do the simmons. Just takes a LONG time to get them like I want them to be, and I have not gotten them "razor sharp" yet. I have gotten them sharp, but not sharp enough to make my hair pop off..
There ya go...
I've seen video's of Ron not popping hair off his arm, but filleting a single hair with a blade sharpened on his system...
Something just sounds, OFF, Dan...
Grizzly are very hard steel, Ted, and until I got his NEW Diamond Stones, it took me that long simply because the stones I had were not coarse enough to pull enough metal off in jig time...now I can.
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Originally posted by Tedd:
Takes a long time to get the 185 Grizzlies sharp. They are very thick and any stage of the sharping with the KME is takes a lot of time. It will get them very very sharp if you have the patience.
I can get my almost as sharp with a file and strop in 1/10th the time, but have been putting in my time with the KME. It takes 1/2 hour to an hour to get one crazy sharp. It's hard to get the tip and the back heel perfect.
I would pay extra to have the grizzlies honed better.
Tedd
Tedd, I can get my 185 Grizzlys shaving sharp in 5 minutes from new with my KME. I think you may be trying to sharpen the entire bevel and not just the edge. Or your stones aren't working any longer. I had to buy new diamond stones as my old stones were just not working either. Give Ron a call it shouldn't take that long. After talking to Ron I have discovered my issues were always trying to get something sharp with old equipment that wouldn't work on anything.
Always use a marker to mark the bevel then you can see that the angle of the sharpener is just doing the cutting edge and not the entire bevel. I usually start a new one with the 300 grit stone for a few swipes then move to 600 and 1500. Finish them on a leather strope with emulsion or jean material.
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KentuckyTJ is right on the money.
About any cutting edge we hunters are likely to use has a primary and secondary bevel. If your basic mechanics are sound ( Ron's is sound for sure)and you are still not getting it sharp, you probably need to back up in grit size. Get the "shoulders" pulled back, perhaps with the diamond stones (fast and aggressive), then concentrate on the very edge using a bit steeper angle. Refine that till it pleases you. It wont take long at all.
A flat grind, sometimes called chisel grind, is established by machine. To maintain that you have to take material off the entire angle, which takes an aggressive stone. The single bevels have this. In our real world, we don't usually sharpen with a machine so we have to think small and might divide it into two bevels with slightly different angles. Of course you can stick with the one bevel if you're a stickler.
Either way, you must access the true cutting edge and achieve a burr.
If I make about three strokes and am not feeling the results, I know to move to a more aggressive stone. Then refine.
Another thing, clean the stones and they'll cut better.
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i am getting 2 different angles of grind somehow.
On one side I am getting a good 23* angle, on the other I am getting almost a factory grind, which appears to be around 25.5* or so. Not sure exactly what I am going to do just yet, but with hunting season exactly 1 month out, something needs to happen soon!
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You guys are too good to me! Thank you Stefan, Charlie, Bisch, Doc, Mikey, Dave, TJ, and Lin!!! Good men all, and highly valued friends as well.
Sharpening is one of the most discussed and least understood topics that you can find on the interweb. Files, stones, sandpaper, paper wheels, carbide pull though sharpeners, crock sticks etc. ... then there are the ideas and concepts that go along with the tools: Angles, burrs, stropping, steeling... For anyone who hasn’t had the benefit of having a reasonably skilled friend or mentor to teach them hands-on, in person, it can quickly begin to seem that basic sharpening can’t be achieved without a PHD. To make this even worse, there are a whole lot of people who like to elevate sharpening to an art form or to the level of rocket science. It’s not. ...and you don’t need a PHD either.
The truth is, sharpening is really close to 90% knowledge and only about 10% skill. Anybody ever hear that before? Probably not. It’s true though.
Think of a sharp cutting edge in cross section. Imagine it in your mind’s eye. It’s a very well defined V shape right? The point where bevel A and bevel B intersect is the cutting edge and on a sharp blade the very tip of the V is extremely well defined and pointed.
Now, imagine a dull cutting edge the same way... Is it a well defined V shape? Nope. It may have a nice V shape at the top but at the bottom where the cutting edge should be, it’s flattened or rounded over into more of a flat bottomed V shape, or perhaps it’s even U shaped. It’s not going to shave hair, cut paper, pop a rubber band, or draw any blood.
Let’s go with the U shape for the moment because that’s easy to imagine.
Q: How do we change the U shaped dull edge back to a sharp well defined V?
A: Stock removal.
To change the shape cutting edge, even a tiny little bit, REQUIRES stock removal. It may only be a few thousandths but it’s a few thousandths of hardened steel. This critical first step can not be accomplished using medium or fine grit stones and we’re dead in the water if we try. It’s like attempting to sand a piece of rough sawn oak with 600 grit sandpaper.
Medium and fine grit stones can only refine the cutting edge we created with the super coarse grits or file. If the blade isn’t shaving when we finish with the coarsest grit, then we can go through 20 more successively finer grits and the end result for all that work will be beautiful, mirror polished bevels ... on a blade that’s still dull as a stump.
That’s the most important concept to understand. Sharpening any type of cutting edge is all about step 1. Once we understand this most basic idea, it won’t matter if we’re sharpening a knife, a broadhead, or a lawnmower blade, it’s all exactly the same.
Ron
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Nice to have you drop in, Ron!
Dan,
Two bevels? I'm "guessing" here that you're talking a double bevel head?
You are one technical person who far outstrips my meager abilities if you can measure bevels with the precision of 23* vs. 25.5*... I couldn't do that if my life depended on it! :notworthy:
Several posters have eluded to compound bevels which Ron explained to me some years back...where the back leading edge of the bevel might be 30* and then the cutting part of the edge 25*.
Apparently, some of the blade master people who compete use that compound bevel as it holds up to the "work" they have to do in competition.
By blackening the very cutting edge with a magic marker like TJ suggested, I can change my knife sharpener angle to EXACTLY address (or dress?) the cutting edge and save myself a lot of work.
As Ron pointed out, a stone with insufficient grit (or worn down to a nubbin) will not sharpen Jack! I wore out my original diamond stones from KME years back trying to put a bevel on some very hard Tusker blanks with rounded edges.
I suck with files, so didn't try that...tried a wheel and almost had the BH embedded in me when I lost a handle on it so I quit...once I called Ron and got the right stones... all was well...
Only dumb questions are the ones we never ask!
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Originally posted by Doc Nock:
Nice to have you drop in, Ron!
Dan,
Two bevels? I'm "guessing" here that you're talking a double bevel head?
You are one technical person who far outstrips my meager abilities if you can measure bevels with the precision of 23* vs. 25.5*... I couldn't do that if my life depended on it! :notworthy:
Several posters have eluded to compound bevels which Ron explained to me some years back...where the back leading edge of the bevel might be 30* and then the cutting part of the edge 25*.
Apparently, some of the blade master people who compete use that compound bevel as it holds up to the "work" they have to do in competition.
By blackening the very cutting edge with a magic marker like TJ suggested, I can change my knife sharpener angle to EXACTLY address (or dress?) the cutting edge and save myself a lot of work.
As Ron pointed out, a stone with insufficient grit (or worn down to a nubbin) will not sharpen Jack! I wore out my original diamond stones from KME years back trying to put a bevel on some very hard Tusker blanks with rounded edges.
I suck with files, so didn't try that...tried a wheel and almost had the BH embedded in me when I lost a handle on it so I quit...once I called Ron and got the right stones... all was well...
Only dumb questions are the ones we never ask!
Well,
I was just going with what degree measurements on the kme. But the naked eye can definitely see the difference in the bevels. On one side, it puts on say 1/8" long and when I flip it, It puts one about 1/16 long(were talking about bevel). I couldn't figure out what it was doing.
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Dang! I've been matching the grind on the Grizzly as close as possible using a maker and my KME sharpener with the diamond stones. And taking that whole bevel to a mirror finish!(instead of using a slightly different angle to sharpen just the edge). I guess that is why it's taking so long! I started shortcutting the operation by starting with a good file (using a marker to maintain the bevel). I am able to clamp the head to file it in my vise.
Tedd
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Dan, I just got the jewel stick from Ron. Took me a while of playing around with what Ron said to do. But I now have my simmons single bevel land sharks scary hair popping sharp. I also got the 4 micron emulsion and hand strop them.Take your time with them. Use the marker ánd finess them.
Thank you Ron for your time and patience with me .
You are truly a great company!
Andy
Ps. Dan I am no expert at sharpening,just take your time and learn from each head you try?
It took me a few hours now I can do a head in 5 min
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DAn,
I wasn't trying to belittle you, but truly in awe that you could measure bevels to that degree. :saywhat: I never was much for precision work I fear...so I'm impressed.
as for the markings on the knife sharpener, I think Ron told me the angle changes depending on how much of the blade is sticking out from the clamp. Some heads/knives are wider and the markings on the set up bar are only approximate, if I'm not mistaken. ( but that too is open for validation!) :rolleyes:
The BH sharpener with the roller on it, is more inclined to 25*...i think...doh!
I got Ron's newer Gold diamond stones and a super coarse one and things have gone better and faster.
I'm sure there are Grizzly heads still in the pipeline from the old source...that had the Right Bevel only and were 30*.
I'm thinking Bill Dunn's current stock would be much easier to touch up and put the finished edge on... I talked to a chap on the phone in TX today who said it was quick like to get a super edge on the Griz he just got from Bill.
It's been amazing to me what tiny things I did wrong that created me such headaches learning to sharpen even with the KME! Hopefully, that is behind me. To be sure, last tutorial I had on the phone, I made notes, hung up and then typed up my notes and emailed to Ron for validation... I think I still had one or two things somewhat backerts, but with luck, I'm on track now...
Now where did I file that document...? :dunno:
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Daniel,
Unless I’m missing something, I’m pretty confident that what you’re seeing is the difference in the factory grind from one side of the blade to the other. Factory bevels are rough and generally done free-hand and it’s exceedingly rare to find any blade (even a high end knife) that has uniform bevels on both sides and the cutting edge positioned dead center on the blade as it should be. (double bevel blade).
Whenever we take a free-hand or factory sharpened blade and put it in a mechanical fixture that doesn’t vary more than 1/2 degree from side to side, the fixture is going to show us every minor flaw or inconsistency in the bevel. This is not suggesting that BHD or knife manufacturers are doing anything wrong. If we really want flawless bevel geometry right out of the pack, we’d need to expect the cost of the knife or BHD to at least double. Even putting a rough grind on is very labor intensive for these manufacturers.
I’d say pick the angle that you like better and just sharpen the blade. As mentioned earlier, use the coarsest side of the Jewelstik. If you want your bevels to look perfect, then work only the narrow bevel at first. This will remove material from the narrower bevel and from the wider bevel too because you’ll be moving the cutting edge back to the center of the blade where it should ideally be. That said, this level of attention to perfect bevel geometry is really completely un-necessary for BHDs . We just need them to be sharp. If one bevel is wider than the other but the blade shaves hair off your arm, the deer will never know the difference.
Call me if you need any help,
Ron
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Straight from the horses mouth!!!
Everytime Ron speaks, I learn something. I never stopped to think that a factory grind on most tools would have different bevels due to hand grinding!
Never too old to learn... just pry the mind open and let it pour in!
Thanks, Ron... Guess I'm just too lazy to get that involved and just put the marker line on the very edge and adjusted till it was taking it off and never looked beyond that...no problem now using single bevel... :knothead:
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Originally posted by Doc Nock:
DAn,
I wasn't trying to belittle you, but truly in awe that you could measure bevels to that degree. :saywhat: I never was much for precision work I fear...so I'm impressed.
as for the markings on the knife sharpener, I think Ron told me the angle changes depending on how much of the blade is sticking out from the clamp. Some heads/knives are wider and the markings on the set up bar are only approximate, if I'm not mistaken. ( but that too is open for validation!) :rolleyes:
The BH sharpener with the roller on it, is more inclined to 25*...i think...doh!
I got Ron's newer Gold diamond stones and a super coarse one and things have gone better and faster.
I'm sure there are Grizzly heads still in the pipeline from the old source...that had the Right Bevel only and were 30*.
I'm thinking Bill Dunn's current stock would be much easier to touch up and put the finished edge on... I talked to a chap on the phone in TX today who said it was quick like to get a super edge on the Griz he just got from Bill.
It's been amazing to me what tiny things I did wrong that created me such headaches learning to sharpen even with the KME! Hopefully, that is behind me. To be sure, last tutorial I had on the phone, I made notes, hung up and then typed up my notes and emailed to Ron for validation... I think I still had one or two things somewhat backerts, but with luck, I'm on track now...
Now where did I file that document...? :dunno:
Doc Nock,
I did not take any offense from your post. It is hard to tell someones tone by typing words, so if mine seemed defensive I do apologize.
I wish Ron(hint hint) would come up with a chainsaw file that would fit in the little hole to make cutting these bevels a lot quicker! ;)
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If you don't have the GOLD diamond series plus the extra coarse, you might try that and wish less about yet another inventory item! :D
I plumb wore out my original diamond stones on just Tuskers...and they're not as hard as some...
Course, you have the curved simmons, right?
One reason I went with the 3:1 style...
Glad I didn't offend in anyway... just seriously was impressed, but now I see how you arrived at your idea, but I think you missed Ron's point.
You do not need to have perfectly matched sides...you can just run a line of marker down the bevel edge and set it to take that off... forget matching the bevels...
Biggest thing I had to learn was to stick with the coarsest grit till I got a "wire edge" on the opposite side (true for double or single bevel) and then...ONLY then, flip that bad boy over and work the other side till you get a wire... then flip again, and start that 15-flip, 15-flip, 10-flip, 10- flip, 5 flip, 5 flip, then one each side flip 10 times each and then and ONLY THEN, switch to another grit and start it over. Takes longer to tell it then do it!