Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: deputy865 on August 31, 2015, 11:11:00 PM
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Made the switch to traditional archery after some complications with compounds and I'm never looking back!
Bow arrived to me today, Fred Bear Montana, 64", 55# and I couldn't be happier with my first longbow.
After receiving, I loaded up and went to my local archery shop in seek of help getting me going. The guy there was really helpful, so I put my trust in him. He properly set up my knock point, measured my draw (28"), recommended arrows, cut them, installed points and let me shoot at the range.
I didn't do too bad, but I noticed my arrow flight wasn't exactly straight. The arrows hit their target straight on, but the flight was a bit funky.
He recommended me some Beman Centershot 340 carbon arrows and I chose 125 grain field tips.
I think this is where I went wrong, I'm guessing my arrows are not only too light, but too flimsy. I just dropped $75 on them and even though they are just some practice arrows for me, I want to be confident enough in them to hunt with.
I've read and watched guys loading their carbons with some poly rope to add some weight, but the rope doesn't add any spine...
So what should I do? Try to swap/return the arrows for something more proper or modify them?
I fully intend on going with and only with woodies in the future, but the archery shop I will be going to doesn't carry them (or much of traditional gear)... But it's the only shop for quote some way!
Thanks!
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Originally posted by deputy865:
Fred Bear Montana, 64", 55#... measured my draw (28"),...
He recommended me some Beman Centershot 340 carbon arrows and I chose 125 grain field tips...
I think this is where I went wrong, I'm guessing my arrows are not only too light, but too flimsy.
I'll let others narrow things down better, but I'd say for a 28" draw and 125 grain field points, you are way too stiff . :D
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If you are planning on using only wood, go online and order some in expensive shafts that match your spine needs and stat getting used to making woodies.
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Originally posted by Florida lime:
Originally posted by deputy865:
Fred Bear Montana, 64", 55#... measured my draw (28"),...
He recommended me some Beman Centershot 340 carbon arrows and I chose 125 grain field tips...
I think this is where I went wrong, I'm guessing my arrows are not only too light, but too flimsy.
I'll let others narrow things down better, but I'd say for a 28" draw and 125 grain field points, you are way too stiff . :D [/b]
Really!? So maybe heavier points and/or load my arrow?
There is so much that goes into this, so I think I'm over thinking what needs adjusting for optimal flight/shooting.
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Agree-way to stiff. Try a higher weight insert and a higher weight point. Hap
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my 50# at 28" Montana uses 500 spine shafts like yours only Easton Axis. My arrows are cut to 29" . You could front load those arrows like suggested above. At least 100grain insert and 175 grain point to start.
I am sorry to read you are learning with your pocket book. Many get discouraged and walk away. I hope you can use what you have until you feel you need new arrows for hunting.
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You might get in touch with another traditional shooter in your area that can stand behind you and watch. There are several things you can try, including adding weight up front to see if the flight improves. Take a look at the following by one of our sponsors:
http://elitearrows.com/proper-arrow/
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Typically, if the shaft is stiff, you can add weight at the point, not to the whole shaft. also, lower the string height (untwist 5 turns at a time), recheck the nocking point per Elite Arrows.
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Yeah, way too stiff. I'm not sure you can ever get them weak enough. I'd stick 300 grains or so up front and try, but im betting they might still be stiff. I'm shooting a Don Dow that's 55 @ 28 and I draw just shy of 29 and the centershot 400s needed 300 up front to bare shaft right for me. However, spine requirements vary from shooter to shooter. I would swap them for 400s if possible. The centershots I have shot more stiff than goldtip or Easton 400s.
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I had a 55 lbs black widow and shot 400's and still found those too stiff. What about getting some cheap aluminum arrows until you make the move to woodies
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First off, welcome to Trad Gang! This is the best place to post questions when you don't know where to turn, and searching the archives will probably find 99% of the info you are looking for.
Second thing, this whole journey will be a lot easier if you can link up with someone who shoots a longbow locally. Michigan Longbow Association has members all over the state (actually many states and several foreign countries too boot.) Anyone who has shot traditional for even a year or two will be far more helpful than anyone at a wheel shop no matter how good their intentions. We've got a sub forum here on TG, feel free to start a thread there if you want to try to meet up at a range with someone.
Last thing is just a general "what would I do in your shoes" advice. Carbon is a pretty good way to start off. If you have a dozen shafts already I'd do the following:
1) they do have feathers and not vanes, right? THIS IS A BIGGIE!
2) screw in 250 grain points. Right now you are dangerously low in GPP and I'll bet your bow is loud as all get out. This will also soften up the spine quite a bit, but it still won't be right.
3) practice plinking with those arrows at short range, focus on the fundamentals, beat up those carbon arrows while you are getting the basics down. Hopefully you've found a shooting partner by about this point.
4) after this you can look at different carbons, aluminums, or wood. Take the time and work with someone who knows longbows and wood arrows. We are lucky to have a few really good resources here in the mitten! Again, if you have a little more experience under your belt you will be able to know better what you need.
Have fun, post or PM when you get stuck.
Thom
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Thanks for the tips!
I'm hoping they will allow me to trade in for something less stiff. I was just assuming that the lower the spine number, the less stiff it was....
I'd much rather go with something less stiff than put a ton of weight at the front of these arrows.
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Way way way too stiff. You need a 400 if you're going to shoot 125 grains,
He gave you a spine that would be fine with a compound but is way to stiff for a longbow.
Your options are to get new arrows or switch to a heavier point. I would start with a 200 grain point and see if that helps. If they are still flying bad go to a 250 grain point.
You won't be able to find field points that heavy at the local shop so check out some of the traditional vendors here. Big Jim's, RMS Gear, 3 Rivers Archery
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Originally posted by deputy865:
Thanks for the tips!
I'm hoping they will allow me to trade in for something less stiff. I was just assuming that the lower the spine number, the less stiff it was....
I'd much rather go with something less stiff than put a ton of weight at the front of these arrows.
A lot trad shooters shoot more than 150 grains for point weight. It really helps with penetration and arrow flight.
The higher the number the weaker the spine. 600 is weaker than 340.
You want your total arrow weight to be around 500 grains to 600 grains.
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Link to a spine chart for traditional bows
http://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf
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Consensus seems to be too stiff and this is probably right, but I would not give up on them -try to add the weight up front. I personally like 340 spine with some of my bows. I think they can be made into a very good arrow.
You said you are getting "funky flight", Just my experience but I can get poor flight from other things as well.
1. Too much pressure on the string with my ring finger.
2. Also try shooting cock feather in against the bow- that often helps me to get better flight.
Keep trying- you will get there, and enjoy the ride!
Oh, and welcome!
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Yeah, those are very stiff and I agree with trying something in the 300gr range up front.
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I'm guessing it's going to be more beneficial to me to get the proper stiffness of arrow instead of adding tons of weight up front?
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Yes.
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Montanas have relatively shallow cut shelves as well...55lbs at 28"s, I'd honestly try a .500 spine arrow but really you'd probably do better with a .400 with around 200-250 grains up front.
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There is more to this story. Those arrows are too stiff for SOME longbows. In this case, I am adding that the amount of cut in the riser will change the whole game. If that bow was cut past center to the point of being center shot (and you said the arrows were cut, but I may have missed how long they were cut to, that matters), it will likely take a much stiffer shaft than one that is not even close to center shot.
I have an RER longbow ( 63#) that is cut to near center and it can have only limited weight on the front of .340s to bare shaft, while another bow, an ASL ( 57#) is not even close to center cut and it bare shafts perfectly with .500 shafts, a 50 gr insert and a 175 to 200 grain head.
A lot of things are at play here for you to understand.
ChuckC
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Welcome from Kentucky!
Agree with the too stiff thoughts. A few things. Never cut a whole lot of arrows at a time. Always cut just one to start off. Also agree with the getting with someone close by and bare shafting to start with.
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
There is more to this story. Those arrows are too stiff for SOME longbows. In this case, I am adding that the amount of cut in the riser will change the whole game. If that bow was cut past center to the point of being center shot (and you said the arrows were cut, but I may have missed how long they were cut to, that matters), it will likely take a much stiffer shaft than one that is not even close to center shot.
I have an RER longbow ( 63#) that is cut to near center and it can have only limited weight on the front of .340s to bare shaft, while another bow, an ASL ( 57#) is not even close to center cut and it bare shafts perfectly with .500 shafts, a 50 gr insert and a 175 to 200 grain head.
A lot of things are at play here for you to understand.
ChuckC
The arrows were all cut at once by the archery shop guy. He also did the inserts, which I'm unsure on what weight they are. They looked fairly long though.
He cut the arrows to, and if I'm remembering right, 30". He didn't take much off, said he preferred a longer arrow and left it at that. I didn't say anything because I knew I could always have more chopped off it need. So for arguments sake, lets say they are in fact 29" (because I know for certainty they aren't any shorted). This way if they are longer, I can have them cut.
Without having someone watch me, it was hard to say where the arrows were flying. When they hit the target, they stuck perfectly straight to the point where I could hardly see them... but when shooting, it looks like they fish tailed to the left. I'll pay closer attention when I fling some today.
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Is the total arrow weight over 500 grains? Anything below that might void your warranty, I'm not sure on Bear's fine print.
Second, did you confirm that these are feathers and not vanes? Those will cauze a left kick on a right hand bow and it's the most common mistake I see when someone with trad gear gets outfitted at a box store or wheel shop.
Thom
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Longbows need more GPP than a compound, 9-10gpp is the norm it seems. with my 65lb longbow I shoot 300gr points/broadheads with a 31.5 inch GT 300 velocity. that puts me right at 596-600 with wrap and feathers. not sure what your arrows weigh but be sure you are up there, don't want that bow to shake apart on you.
After that you need to practice, get your form down or you could just be chasing your tail as far as spines.
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They are feathers, not vanes.
How can I measure my "GPP"?
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Do you have a scale? if not look on the arrow it should tell you GPI and that's grains per inch. add that up then the weight of the point, weight of the nock, the insert, and then the feathers, even how much glue can add up weight.
you may have to look up what kind you have on the interwebs. my guesstimate is about 465gr max...
Your looking at 8.45 grains per pound. That's usually just within the acceptable range. depends on what the bow maker says though. I am a believer in the 9-10 grains per pound rule though. it settles the bow down, makes it a lot quitter and less shock. all that energy gets absorbed in to the arrow for use down range.
you could add another 25-75 grains up front so a 150-200 grain point and be under 10gpp.
3rivers sells a field point test kits, I recommend getting them. makes life so much easier.
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deputy865, Welcome to Trad Gang. Before you get your pocket book out post what you need and or questions here first. Alot of the archery shops of this day and age are hi tech, and probably do not have a clue on how to set up and tune a traditional bow. Have fun on your traditional journey! :archer2:
Denny
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Glad they at least got the feathers right for you!
Since that shaft is 10.3 grains per inch you have about 300 in shaft material. 125 on the point, probably about 15 for an aluminum screw in adapter and about 25 in feathers and a nock. I'm guessing that shot in the dark at 465 grains is about right. This is why I suggested a 250 grain point to get your arrow up into the safe range. The extra grains would also help a bit with that shaft being way too stiff in spine for a 55# longbow.
Just because they would be safe there doesn't mean they will be even close to right for that bow. This will just give you something to plink with while you are working on your next arrow setup.
Thom
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You can make the .340's work, as long as they are still near full length, and you will have to add quite a bit of weight to the front end via heavy insert, or heavy point, or a combination of the two.
Bisch
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Loading up the front end of the arrow is not a bad thing at all. Matter of fact it is a good thing. As previously mentioned it aids penetration on game, makes for a very stable arrow and adds valuable weight to the total arrow.
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Loading up the front end of the arrow is not a bad thing at all. Matter of fact it is a good thing. As previously mentioned it aids penetration on game, makes for a very stable arrow and adds valuable weight to the total arrow.
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I shot for over a year before I even started to think about hunting...the International Bowhunter Education Program emphasizes archer first and bowhunter later...unless you are an exceptional archer it is going to take you a while to be hunt ready with repeatable and consistent form under pressure...this is not at all like shooting a wheel bow with a release
DDave
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You should be able to shoot good groups with arrows that are far stiffer than will give good flight...I have some old Grand Slam 2317's that are my go to arrows for just fooling around shooting indoors...I can sometime see them going nearly sideways downrange but they still end up in a pretty good group at 20 yards when I do my part...when I am shooting at game I want arrows that bareshaft very well (within reason)...when I am shooting inanimate objects, which is what you ought to be focusing on at this point in your traditional journey, it matters little
DDave
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Pm sent.
I'm sure we can get those arrows flying reasonably well.
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As it stands now I'm getting some fairly good groupings from the 10-12 yard range. I'm slowly inching myself back in range, but I do not totally feel comfortable at this point to deer hunt with it. I'll probably small game hunt with it for fun, but that is as far as I'm willing to go at this point.
Great support on this website. I'm blown away by the amount of people willing to help!
Lost one of my pretty carbons last night... Refuse to give up on the search as it didn't go far, but it disappeared....
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Order you a field point test kit from bigjim. Youll a get a range pionts 2 each of 125 to 250gr points. When find out what point weight you need then order that weight. You could also order 100gr inserts as well but be sure and order BigJim's hotmelt glue. That way you can easily change out inserts.