Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: BrownA5 on August 29, 2015, 04:48:00 PM
-
Anyone have recommendations on pepper spray for bears or large kitties?
-
Forget the pepper spray. Use the long range hornet/wasp spray.
-
If the wind is wrong, you won't be happy using bear spray. I like the idea of the hornet spray.
-
I was skeptical about the effectiveness of Bear spray. Here is my brother in-laws first hand experience with it, this just happened last fall (2014) here in Utah. He said he had a feeling that morning that he needed to take the spray along on the hunt. He put it on his belt and off he went in the darkness to a secluded pond to sit and try to shoot an elk with his bow. Just as he tip toed over a small burn below the pond, a sow black bear came out of the bushes and charged him. He reacted and sprayed her just feet before she reached him. The bear turned an immediate 180 degrees and ran as hard and fast as she could back into the pine trees. He could hear her moaning and growling all morning. I went to the nearest sporting goods store and purchased a can, it always goes on my pack. He said that he would have been in real trouble, if not for the spray. It absolutely works!
-
What is Hornet spray ?
And what is Bear spray ?
Some links please
-
I like the idea of not shooting the bears.
Like bowfanatik said: some info would be great
F-Manny
-
You will rarely see this report (authored by two of the world's leading scientific authorities on bear attacks) discussed by the heavy-caliber handgun crowd, so here are some numbers from the report to keep in mind:
"In 92% (46 of 50; G1 1⁄4 41.4, P , 0.001) of close-range encounters with brown bears, spray stopped undesirable behavior in which the bear was engaged. In 90% (18 of 20; G1 1⁄4 14.7, P 1⁄4 0.001) of close-range encounters with black bears, spray stopped the bear’s undesirable behavior. All bear-inflicted injuries (n 1⁄4 3) involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). During 1985–1995, Herrero and Higgins (1998) found bear spray use in Alaska 94% effective overall (30 of 32 incidents; G1 1⁄4 31.3, P , 0.001); we found that in the decade following bear spray, efficacy was 90% (36 of 41 cases; G1 1⁄4 33.4, P , 0.001)."
Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/bear_cougar/bear/files/JWM_BearSprayAlaska.pdf)
Ah, but what about the wind, you say?
"Wind can influence bear spray’s accuracy and distance; however, our data show that wind rarely affected the outcome of bear–human interactions involving bear spray, which is likely because many close encounters do not occur in open areas, but rather in dense brush or forests where wind is greatly attenuated (T. Smith, Brigham Young University, unpublished data; S. Herrero, University of Calgary, unpublished data). High exit velocities of spray from cans likely compensates for cross-wind effects and may account for the low incidence of wind-related effects reported in Alaska. Of the 72 incidents we studied, 4 (6%) involved persons that had to leave the area to alleviate burning eyes and coughing. No one reported being incapacitated by spray, although one user said he had to move or he would have been overwhelmed."
-
For those unfamiliar with bear spray products, here's a handy compilation from the EPA. My choice for many years has been the first one listed here:
Bear Deterrents (http://www2.epa.gov/region8/bear-deterrents)
-
Bowfanatik; bear spray is like peper-spray/mace for humans except in a larger container and used for bears. While a good side arm or rifle has proven effective for many generations, 1) in the heat of the moment the person can miss 2) the shot may not prove rapidly fatal so you still get mauled, or 3) you kill a bear that could have otherwise been on a bluff charge (least concerning for most people). Bear spray, as stated above, is quick and easy to use, has a wide spray stream, and assaults the sensitive senses of the bear so they turn and bail (most of the time anyhow). Wasp/hornet spray is a cheaper alternative that is used to kill wasps but is pretty painful stuff and has a long effective range since it was designed so that you dont have to get right up on the bugs to kill them.
-
I would carry spray along with my .44 Super Blackhawk if I had the option. I believe that the big "studies" (purporting to conclusively prove that bear spray is more effective than handguns) have been shown to have used skewed data, and it was not a true apples-to-apples comparison.
I'm sure the stuff works though, and have a can of my own in my basement as I write this. We used to carry Counter Assault when I lived in Alaska, but I never knew anyone who had to use it. As a matter of fact, I lived in Fairbanks for 20+ years, and did a ton of fishing, hunting hiking, camping, off-roading, mountain biking, and running, and I never saw even ONE bear in the wild!
Maybe I smell worse than I think...? :dunno:
-
I used to carry bear spray on our Canadian and Boundary Waters canoe trips. We have crossed paths with quite a few black bears, some within feet of me. Not once did I really feel that I was in any danger. I quit taking it along, just extra weight. I have been threatened by a couple of mama moosies. In those cases a 'beam up Scotty' would have been good, but lightening fast legs was just barely good enough. I was told by a bear biologist if a black bear sow is pulling a hissy fit that they are just asking for space. He had never heard of a hissy fit bear attacking anyone. We have had them huff and puff, slap at brush, clack their teeth and then go on their way a number of times. The ones to watch out for according to him are the stalkers, but he said that he had never seen one himself. He handled bear cubs all of the time and the mama would just hang back and watch.
I will not go out in grizzly country without a fresh can in a quick draw holster, luckily I've never had to draw it.
-
Great thread.
We have always carried bear spray for the past decade or more but never had to use it.
I would like to hear from more members like Conner Parry who have either used bear spray personally, or have a very close second-hand tale to relate from a best friend, family member, etc.
Anyone???
-
About 25 years ago I was in the hospital for some surgery. I met another patient there who had been chewed up by a black bear. His wounds were not a pretty sight. Though black bears have a reputation for being shy, I can tell you from first-hand observation that they can do a lot of ugly damage when they want to mess up a person.
I would not hesitate to use bear spray on a black bear, especially after seeing the damage one can do.
-
If it is a recommendation on a brand, I would strongly suggest UDAP.
Thanks,
-
I carry it, only time I've unholstered it was for a lovesick bull moose! Didn't have to use it but was ready, it was pitch black and so are the Shiras moose. Good thing about bear spray over a side arm is it has a brightly colored stream of fluid when shot so you can see it and correct your aim! With a firearm, you better hit a shoulder bone and break him down, otherwise you are just going to increase his adrenaline flow and tick him off more!
-
I remember reading is a similar post a few years ago from a guide in bear country saying that if you carry a side arm for protection in bear country to file off the front sight...it makes it less painful when the bear shoves it up your butt...point being it is very hard to shoot a handgun effectively with a bear charging you.
Bowfanatik, the wasp/hornet spray(for killing wasps and hornets, stinging insects) is made to shoot at 20' or more a straight stream of the bug juice. I don't know what the effective range of bear spray is.
-
I remember reading is a similar post a few years ago from a guide in bear country saying that if you carry a side arm for protection in bear country to file off the front sight...it makes it less painful when the bear shoves it up your butt...point being it is very hard to shoot a handgun effectively with a bear charging you.
Bowfanatik, the wasp/hornet spray(for killing wasps and hornets, stinging insects) is made to shoot at 20' or more a straight stream of the bug juice. I don't know what the effective range of bear spray is.
-
If kitty is going to get you your not going to see it. If you see a cat they are fairly easy to chase off. Well the two I had close calls with.
If I'm calling in the mountains I always have my 44 in my lap.
-
Pat,
Range has a lot to do with the manufacture, size of canister, and if I remember correctly temperature can effect it also. For the most part you can expect 25-35'. The advantage bear spray has over bug spray, is the bear spray on esout in a cloud rather than a stream.
Thanks,
-
If I was in Bear Country, I would be sure to have some spray but one thing to keep in mind is I heard the bush pilot's in Alaska won't let you bring that stuff on the plane. This is what I heard. Can anyone confirm this? And if they won't fly with it, what your alternatives? Only thing I can think of is a good sidearm.
-
I started carrying it on my western hunts a few years ago. Doesn't weigh much and, IMO, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
I haven't been to Alaska in more than 10 years and I wasn't aware of the Counter Assault spray then. If I had been, I definitely would have had some. Most folks are notoriously poor shots with pistols, particularly large caliber pistols, and particularly when a bear is bearing down on them. What I've heard since is that some,not all, bush pilots don't want it inside the plane, for fear that it might go off. However, the mechanism controlling the spray is pretty foolproof, and I haven't heard of any such accidents/occurences. Regardless, if the pilot doesn't want it in the plane, tape the container to a wing strut.
-
Thanks all for the input. As always, you all are great about sharing insight/knowledge/ experiences. This isn't my first time in bear country, but it will be my first time packing bear spray!
-
I'm still wending my way home from another Alaska hunt. I'll try to find time to demonstrate a couple situations where spray could have been used and what would have likely happened....just about 9 days ago.
-
Originally posted by eidsvolling:
For those unfamiliar with bear spray products, here's a handy compilation from the EPA. My choice for many years has been the first one listed here:
Bear Deterrents (http://www2.epa.gov/region8/bear-deterrents)
Thanks eidsvolling
F-Manny
-
I would be reluctant to substitute bee/wasp spray for bear spray. Bee/wasp spray uses pesticides as the active ingredient while bear spray uses capsaicin, the hot stuff in peppers. I am not aware of any studies that have been conducted to determine the effectiveness of bee/wasp spray to stop a charging bear. "Cheaper cost" is the last thing I am thinking about if a bear is charging me! It is against federal regulations to carry bear spray in either carry-on or checked baggage on commercial airlines.
-
The bear spray I have used releases a thick cloud of stuff about the size of a refrigerator at 15-20 feet and it comes out with some force. That's way more effective than wasp spray where some accuracy is needed. I am sure it works on momma moose too, which I consider as dangerous as bears.................as for mountain lions the first hint you are going to get is this 150 pound fur coat you are wearing. Cabela's sells serious bear spray. One more thing; practice with the spray but not in your basement! :bigsmyl:
-
I have always had Couunter Assault brand bear spray...that is what was used when I worked for the USFS a couple of summers.
however now I have another brand as well and that would be UDA P and the reason being I like ther holster it is made of a stretchy material and you can shoot from the holster. UDAP had a training simulator set up in Ennis Montana a couple of weeks ago and after practicing on that I really like the holster . I think most people do not realize how fast bears are when they charge...you have to have the container where you can get your hand on it instantly and be spraying muy pronto!!
-
I just bring a 1911 loaded with FMJ. If you are in Brown Bear country spring for a .44mag revolver.
-
Idfg Investigating Scene Of Incident Involving Archery Hunter And Grizzly Bear In Island Park
An archery hunter was attacked by a sow grizzly bear while hunting in the Caribou-Targhee National Forest in the vicinity of Yale Creek near Sawtell Peak Monday morning August 31. The archer sustained injuries to his hand and wrist, but hiked out under his own power and was transported by ambulance to Madison County Hospital in Rexburg.
The hunter reportedly was carrying bear spray but apparently couldn't access it when the attack occurred. He tried to shoot the bear several times with a .44 magnum revolver pistol at point-blank range. Idaho Department of Fish and Game personnel are heading to the area of the incident to access the situation and try and determine the condition of the grizzly, who the hunter says had three cubs with her.
In the case of such incidents involving attacks on humans by wildlife, Fish and Game has a special cadre of professionals called the WHART Team (Wildlife Human Attack Response Team) trained and equipped to rapidly respond to such situations.
Further information regarding the incident will be released as information becomes available.
-
I own and use both...spray and firearms as I think the situation might warrant. I think spray has its place, but has more limits to use than a firearm. Sticking an index finger through the ring, then cleanly deploying the canister from the floppy holster (holder really), then thumbing-off the safety device while dealing with the anxiety of an incoming grizzly is not something most guys can do quickly. Given the element of surprise, I'd wager most guys...myself included...can't be on-target in under 5 seconds in any surprise attack. That basically means any bear coming hard from less than 50 yards will be on the man before the can is in use.
Then there is the one-and-done aspect. Go on a ten day hunt and if you need to use the spray once, you'll be without it unless you carry multiples which I have personally never seen. In serious grizzly areas you may well have multiple sightings and encounters on an extended hunt. I would not feel adequately protected knowing I had five days left to hunt amongst bears and maybe 4 ounces of spray left in a can.
Most guys rely on the odds: they won't even see or face an aggressive grizzly. That's a good thing. I've had a couple grizzly encounters (as has a friend of mine) and we both have agreed that it usually happens FAST and there is almost always the element of disbelief or shock at what you are seeing. It's one thing to sit at home and plan your reaction; something entirely different when it's you and one bear coming in fast.
-
As an aside: I've done numerous (4 years total) of raids and patrols in Iraq. IEDs, snipers, mortars, rockets, you name it I've ducked, dipped, and dodged it. But I simply can not for the life of me fathom how some of you manage to screw a pair on and walk (often at night or dark) around alone in the mountains and bush of the west, Alaska, and the like. Mountain lions, brown and grizzly bears, moose... I can imagine situations of failure for both guns and spray. My hats off to ya'll. maybe one day I'll get out there and see it, until then - just the idea of a massive angry bear charging down on me makes me sweat.
-
Couple of thoughts...
I was demonstrating proper use of spray to my wife about 15 years ago and deployed a small burst from a can. A gentle breeze blew some back at me and rendered me blind, moaning, and helpless. (to the great amusement of my wife :) )
I stopped carrying it for several years after that and carried only my .44.
I was charged at close range by a huge boar, that ended up running right by me. I froze and didn't even unholster my weapon..... Luckily the "charge" was really just the bear breaking into a bluff run by me. But it left me feeling a little flat footed and underprepared. Also, had I killed that bear, it would have been wrong. He was not attacking, just bluffing.
Recently I have gone back to carrying both.... The research and numbers just don't lie. But many of the reasons for both are well spelled out by Kevin.
1)We are way back in grizzly country for multiple day hunts. Seeing a grizzly is a very real possibility. Also, these are not your fat, happy, fish eating alaska bears. These are the snarling survivors, that scratch an existence living partly on moths and robbing squirrels. I.e. they have a hungry belly and a chip on their shoulders.
2) Some times in camp a weapon is the right tool for warning or a long range deterent.
3) I like the idea of spray first... shoot him off me if need be.
Jeff
-
Just a few days ago...
I had carried the first of two packloads approximately a mile in and 800' up into a treeless mountain pass. I sat down to have a quick lunch. 15 minutes later I looked east and was astounded to see a big honey-colored grizzly coming my way at something like 1/8 mile. The 20 mph wind was blowing easterly...from the bear to me...and he had no clue. Unfortunately he chose a track destined to put him right in my lap. Having just buzzed the pass 2 hours earlier and having no reason to believe there was a grizz within ten miles, my handgun was a mile away. I had a single canister of UDAP. I pulled it, knowing the 20 mph headwind was not good.
When the bear got in under 100 yards I knew it was time to act. I clicked the safety off (from canister, stood up and coarsely yelled at the bear. Over the next minute he studied me and seemed to want to investigate before giving up. I didn't like the wind and knew it was trouble. I kept yelling and bluffing, circling a bit to the right in case it might help with the wind. Finally I showed him the can with the big white letters 'UDAP' on it and he instantly busted his tail getting off the mountain and down into the alders. (okay...I exaggerated that part about the letters... ;) )
If that bear had pressed the issue I would have gotten as much pepper as he did, and probably disabled myself.
-
You would have made a delicious pepper steak dinner for him. Glad you made it out OK.
-
I have been bluff charged by a grizzly from about 30 yards and things happen fast. All I had time to do from the time I first saw the bear until he was at 10' woofing and popping his teeth was holler at him. I would not have had time to get off a shot with either bear spray or a pistol if I would have had it in my hand. And yes most pilots in AK will not allow bear spray inside their airplane due to if it accidentally discharged thing would be bad.
-
Originally posted by kevsuperg:
You would have made a delicious pepper steak dinner for him.
I think my hams would have needed some cleaning...
The other incident happened 2 days later. I was in the tent around 9:30 am due to terrible fog and rain...couldn't hunt. I heard a peculiar repetitive whine approaching the camp and so quickly grabbed my handgun. In just a few seconds whatever was approaching had made it just outside the tent. I was debating whether to sit quietly or make big-time noise and hope for the best. I sat quietly and figured if the tent bulged inward I would ventilate that spot instantly with a hard-cast slug. Suddenly 'it' huffed 2 or 3 times and hurried away. I cautiously unzipped the door and peered out to see a darker colored grizzly loping away.
I've always said that I spend 1/3 of every Alaskan trip inside a tent, and there is no pepper spray which will penetrate fabric. I could only employ it after allowing a bear to ignore the 'Do Not Enter' sign. No thanks. I'm not waiting for a bear to create a spray hole. I didn't want to shoot that bear, but I would have quickly done just that. The weather was so bad (for days in fact) that an evac would have been near-impossible. Allowing that bear to tear up my tent or injure me could have had dire consequences. He might have been just being a bear investigating camp, but his response may have saved both our lives.
People might disagree with me on this, but I won't sleep well thinking I have only pepper spray which is almost no defense at all inside a tent.
-
I'll be moving to north on idaho at the end of this month.
Seriously considering a S&W .500
I've been told my .44 will only make them mad.
Don't think my recurve will be much help either.
-
When I used to carry spray for bears you need to read the labels, some are no good or not as good below freezing temperatures.
Maybe they have changed or gotten better I don't know but there never the same if they freeze. The type I used anyway and they were the large type cans and holsters.
Tracy
-
The area I have been hunting for the past several years is loaded with bears. Ran into a Conservation Officer who saw my can of UDAP an thought it was a great idea. Last season I accidentally still hunted my way to within 75 yards or so of a huge sow with a cub. I admit that I had my doubts in that moment that the spray would be of much help. Thankfully I didn't have to find out as she and I were both walking with the wind in our favor. She never saw me as I slipped away from behind her and her cub.
The spray may be effective but I can tell you first hand that the wind is definitely a factor. I bought a new can last season and decided I should practice a little with the old one so I went into the back yard and sprayed it into some bushes in the corner. The breeze was so light I didn't give it a second thought. Could barely discern the direction it was blowing...barely even feel it. I was accurate with it at 15 feet but some of the mist drifted back to me and I immediately couldn't see. Not a good thing with a bear in the equation. I could definitely see the argument for wanting a handgun along
-
Kevin, you've made great points for carrying both.
-
I would much prefer the spray to a handgun. I shoot pistols a fair bit, but I seriously don't I could get off a stopping shot on a charging bear at close range. I have had no combat training or anything and I think most people seriously underestimate their nerves. As for cats they are actually the stuff off my nightmares when roaming the woods at night. Beautiful creatures but, what's really scary is that you would simply never know. One minute you'd be walking along and the next you'd have a giant cat with a matching pair of fangs buried in your neck! Man that gives me the heebie Jeebies!
-
I have a crazy paranoid friend that is so scared of cats that he wears a hard plastic neck brace if he is walking out after dark. Comforts him I guess. :dunno:
-
Cats seem scary... But by the numbers, they just don't attack armed men. I believe we have many more cat encounters then we know.
But because they keep their distance, we are blissfully unaware.
Bears, on the other hand, kill or attack people regularly around here.
-
I was going to carry bear spray on my Alaska hunt a couple of years ago, but it was a hassle getting it on the plane, and I just carried a borrowed .44 Super Blackhawk.
I did not feel confident AT ALL in that sidearm, as I hadn't shot it and gotten comfortable with it beforehand. A few months ago, I picked up one of Ruger's new 3 3/4" Bisley Lipsey .44 Super Blackhawks, and I think it's going to be the perfect sidearm for me as a bowhunter. Depending on the situation, spray will always be considered as well, but I just feel better with a good, loud, and capable pistol on me. It will handle the 340 grain Buffalo Bore cartridges well. I'll shoot that gun a lot in the field before relying on it, too.
-
I saw a big blacky male bluff charge a canoeist once. He did exactly the right thing, raised his hands in the the air and bellowed like a bull getting castrated. When I told him that he did exactly the right thing, he said, "I did what?" He also wet his pants, that may have helped. Black bears appear to be able to be at top speed in two steps, I imagine grizzlies are just as fast. One thing a gun can do is make a lot of noise, regardless how bad of shot someone is.
-
I'm serious about this:
I have often wondered why somebody doesn't invent the 'ultimate' bear defender. That would be a flare-gun type device which puts out a huge flash-bang while simultaneously blasting a pepper charge for 20'.
Kimber (Firearms) sells a 'Pepper Blaster' which is designed for personal defense (not from bears) and works like a handgun. Two trigger pulls will get you 2 blasts (by actual propellant) of potent capsicum spray. I carry one in my truck all the time. I can't see a reason why this concept couldn't be advanced into a larger and louder device suitable for bear defense.
-
Kevin,
You may be on to something, better patent that idea.
-
Perhaps I should have more fear of black bears than I do, but considering how many interactions between humans and black bears happen every year that never amount to anything, attacks from them are still relatively a very low percentage. While I hate the idea of pepper spraying anything, I think all to often people are too quick to react through fear, the noise factor as a deterrent is something to consider. A loud bang or blast can change a pesky animals intent very quickly without causing harm. If one had a choice between loud blast and then able to use pepper spray as a final deterrent, all in one quick to use tool could be a good and practical thing.
-
I am a big supporter of bear spray and don't even own a handgun. Once during a very close encounter with two bedded mountain lions, I got out the pepper spray and started reading instructions. Surprised to find out that in less than 10 seconds the can would be emptied. Better make sure of your shot as you will only get 2-3 shots out of the can at best before empty.
-
A Remington 12gage shotgun with a slugs will work, I know it's something else to carry, but I would rather carry that than be carried by 6 friends at my funeral. That's what the guides and pilot's carry in the Alaska bush plus the 44 mag.