Black bear season is fast approaching here in Ny, and I'm getting fired up about it.
I haven't killed many bears over the years, and I've always passed up any sows I've seen, that have had cubs with them. They're legal where I hunt in the Adirondacks, but It's never seemed right to me to kill them. I always figured that the cubs, being so small, wouldn't have much chance without momma.
I spoke with a wildlife biologist recently, that told me that the cubs are self sufficient by five months old, and any cubs that were left on their own during the summer, and especially by the September bear season, would be fine on their own.
He told me that they know everything they needed to know by this point, and would even instinctively search out a den for winter.
This has me rethinking my views on it. That's not to say that I've changed my mind, but rethinking it.
We can't use bait here in NY, and I've generally had to work my tail off for the few bears that I've killed over the years, and it would be nice not to feel that I need to pass on them when they can be so few and far between.
I don't mean what I said in the above statement to sound like I think baiting is a piece of cake either. I imagine you'd have to choose the right place, and I'm sure It's work lugging bait, and keeping up with it. It just seems like you'd have more opportunities, at maybe several different bears, and a better chance that they'd be back to the same place when you could be there. Where I've had to walk for miles some years, just to find a place that they're/were using. Then it's a crap shoot whether they'll still be there when season opens, and then I have to be there when, and if they do show up, with the limited time I have to hunt.
So... What are your thoughts?
Bob
Bear hunting is my main passion and we have plenty in the n ga mtns. We are not allowed to kill sows with cubs and I wouldnt anyway but Ive had to pass up a good many bears because they had cubs. I have seen some really really small cubs with sows even in september that Im sure wouldnt make it and Ive seen some cubs that I couldnt say for sure werent just other bears feeding together.
Youre probably right. Most of them would probably survive but bears are extremely intelligent and bonding animals. They obviously mourn loss so I just couldnt do it. A deer to me is just an overgrown rabbit whereas a bear is close to the great apes i telligence wise. In the end, its what youre comfy with.
I would disagree completely with any biologist that says a cub is self-sufficient in it first fall season as that is(at best) a partial truth. It may be well able to find food for itself but the sow provides crucial predatory protection in its first year of life. Very few will survive without this protection as predatory males have but one single fear- the angry sow. Under normal/natural conditions, a cub will stay with the sow until its second summer. There is a reason in nature for that.
I cant begin to imagine shooting a sow with a cub under a year old.
That's exactly how I've looked at it Jerry, and It's never seemed right to me.
Bob
I dont even shoot does with small yearlings but will bust a yearling at the drop of a hat. How do larger cubs taste and is there a size limit? Pardon my ignorance as coastal Ms. has no season as of now. Most bears seen here were introduced by DWF officials and many are collared.
Also beware that it is unlawful to take a bear in the southern zone if it's in a group of 2 or more.
I don't believe that biologist either. The bear guides from Maine that I hunted with lived with bears for their whole lives always said to kill a sow with cubs, you may as well kill the cubs too because they aren't gonna last til even denning time. I'm pretty sure if you wound up killing a sow with cubs you'd have to run the cubs from her carcass.
Izzy, every Maine guide I've ever spoke with said the same. This years Cubs will not survive alone. I'll also check with Jim Akenson. He's a wildlife biologist and the Ores of the PBS. I'm certain that a 5 month old cub will not make it.
The policy in BC is that a sow accompanied by cubs of any age cannot be harvested by a hunter, and if a sow that is habituated (problem bear) is killed by a CO, the cubs are killed as well because they will not survice one their own if they are less than 14 months old.
Your bio is obviously an avian specialist.
Most of you are confirming what I've always suspected. Why would this be legal then? It makes no sense to me.
It's been said but the biologist doesn't know what he's talking about unless he meant a year and 5 months.I know your bears are more than 5 months by hunting season but a 5 month old cub has only been out of the den it was born in for a couple weeks.It is barely the size of a house cat and is still nursing.Even in the Fall,at 8 months or so,it has a lot to learn about where the food sources are those last weeks before denning etc.Boars will kill cubs in a heart beat and at this young age,cubs aren't as attentive as they will be if they survive to get older and the mother's constant vigilance is what keeps them alive.
Even at 1 1/2 years,they aren't the brightest and many get themselves in trouble or get killed shortly after being emancipated.There is a reason why cubs stay with sows till 1 1/2 years old.Breeding age sows are also the best bait there is for mature boars.
A fall bear with cubs would put the cubs at a little over a half year old since they're born in the den around January/February timeframe. They'll stay with the sow and den back up with her the following winter. She'll run them off when she comes back into heat the following June. In Michigan it's illegal to kill a sow with cubs. Kill the sow and you've killed the cubs.
Little guys I caught on trail cam in Quebec. Note the date and the size of the little guys.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/IMAG0197.jpg) (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/Yellowdog3822/media/IMAG0197.jpg.html)
No biological statistics behind my opinion, I just wouldn't. I just don't feel the need to kill anything strong enough that'd I'd do it in front of it's kids. I don't look down on anyone that would, it's just not in me. I'm not out there to waste my time any more than the next guy (or gal), but there's just sometimes the game makes it in a "safe zone" with me, up to but not limited to: kids with it, it being in water, it being caught up or prevented from escape in some way, and laying down or sleeping. They're just personal limitations though, and I don't expect or care if anyone elses follows them.
I was told in Quebec this year on Bear Quest #9 that if a cub was 50 pounds it could survive on it's own. Now I would think a 50 pounder would be last years cub........Plus at that point you need to know what a 50# cub looks like. But it is a thing that only you can decide at the moment of the hunt.
PA has a bunch of bears. They kill upwards of 3000+ each year in a 3-4 day season. All bears be in boar, sow, cubs are legal. Bear season is as good as ever. I am no biologist but based on PA success I would think it does not matter.
It sounds like that biologist only gave half the truth. I am sure a 5 month cub is "capable" of surviving, but I am more sure that it is not likely to survive.
I have a soft spot for the bears so I definitely would not kill one with a cub. They get hunted so hard with bait and dogs that they have garnered my sympathy. Even though there is a bear near Hot Springs NC walking around with my cooking pot he stole from camp!
I killed a boar in the Adirondacks that was tooth aged by NYSDEC to be 22 months. I guess you could call him a cub but he was alone, I figure you could compare him to a button buck chased off by a doe.
He wasn't the wariest animal and looking back I think he was just recently chased off by the sow that birthed him, and if he hadn't run into me or a big boar he may have been of age to survive but again, he was alone.
Sows with cubs are illegal in WNC. By the second spring the cubs are probably going to make it but I can tell you from experience that if they lose mama before June (around 16 months) they are the most stupid, pathetic moochers and likely to become nuisance bears in populated areas. Our mast was so good last fall that the pregnant sows had 3 or more cubs this winter...the little rascals are everywhere.
I would like to know where that biologist got his opinion.
Here is is not legal to take any sow with cubs. Also, those cubs the biologist talked about will NOT survive. They do not have the skills to make it on their own and they would be fodder for the next boar ( or coyote, bobcat, etc ) that came along. Sounds like poor management that will lead to a crashing bear population.
My thought is that once the law is complied with hunting ethics are an individual thing...I would not ask anyone to give me permission to kill an animal legally...we seem to live in a time when internet pundits must be consulted for permission before proceeding...not my cup of tea
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
My thought is that once the law is complied with hunting ethics are an individual thing...I would not ask anyone to give me permission to kill an animal legally...we seem to live in a time when internet pundits must be consulted for permission before proceeding...not my cup of tea
DDave
Well said!
Pick up the book Understanding Michigan Black Bears by Richard P Smith. There are a few chapters on bear cubs that are very informative . Mr Smith loves black bears and is very well informed on bears in the wild. I would not shoot a sow with cubs
I've never bear hunted but I would like to.
I've been pondering the same question.
I just saw the video of the bears playing in the swimming pool.After seeing that I think that I would pass on a sow with cubs.But thats just me.
With that being said, I don't think you could crash a healthy bear population if some hunters chose to shoot mama bear.
In the end I feel that my hunting ethics are between me and God and the bear. We'll work it all out together,alone.
I would never shoot a sow with cubs even if she was dry and no longer nursing as it is impossible to tell that at bow range. If the cubs are with her then you got to treat them like they are nursing.
That being said I would shoot a "dry" Sow if really old or if it was an accident. Actually, my bear was just that...thought it was a boar...big head, wide body, perfect coat with no rubs or rippling on the sides, no cubs or other small bears with her.
That being said I think cubs that are in their 2nd spring will survive fine as that is when the mother would kick them out anyhow. The first Spring...I don't think would work.....other bears would be their biggest threat and wolves I would think.
Here is my sow that even the guide thought was a boar until we turned her over to drag over log. I am getting her tooth aged as he suspected her to be over 14 years...teeth worn and yellowed...large skull (almost 19") and 300# with no fat on her at all for a Spring Bear except small fat saucers on each haunch the size of my hand.
Sows with cubs are illegal most everywhere. Dry Sows without cubs in attendance are not in most places. Follow the laws and then make your choice. I had no intention of shooting a sow though legal if not accompanied by cubs in Saskatchewan. Sometimes mistakes happen...as I was convinced she was a big boar.
(http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL285/1460516/24043253/411415113.jpg)
If you really want to understand the lives if bears, read both of Ben Kilham's books. There is nobody alive who has spent more time with wild black bears. The most fascinating reading Ive ever done and clarified a lot of things Ive been wondering about for ages.
Also would not shoot a sow with cubs.
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
My thought is that once the law is complied with hunting ethics are an individual thing...I would not ask anyone to give me permission to kill an animal legally...we seem to live in a time when internet pundits must be consulted for permission before proceeding...not my cup of tea
DDave
I'm not looking for anybodys permission to kill a sow bear with cubs Dave. As I stated in my original post, even though It's legal where I hunt in the Adirondacks, It's never seemed right to to me, and I've never done it.
After talking with the biologist, and assuming that he'd know what he was talking about regarding bears, I simply asked for the thoughts of the others here.
If we knew each other personally, you'd know that that asking for permission to legally kill an animal isn't my cup of tea either. ;)
Bob
The facts as presented from the biologist may have been misquoted or misinterpreted. I will offer that without the science, performed by biologists and PAID for by hunters, these wouldn't be the good ole days for most hunting that they are.
The best biologists I know are avid hunters. I hired a bunch and NEVER hired one that wasn't a hunter.
Oh, I wouldn't shoot a sow with cubs, whether or not the law allowed it. My choice. I do however trust the science. But then, I'm profoundly biased.
(http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y434/danamhay/Mobile%20Uploads/1440343969_zps31fa285a.jpg) (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/danamhay/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1440343969_zps31fa285a.jpg.html)
Taken from my mother's dining room window a week ago. I'm pretty sure these two wouldn't make it through the winter without mamma bear. There are a lot of calories to put down before winter for all of these. I have flung a rubber blunt at bear hienie, but am not a bear hunter.
"I have flung a rubber blunt at bear hienie".
And I thought I was the only one who may - or may not- have done that with young bears that are overly familiar with human stuff.
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
My thought is that once the law is complied with hunting ethics are an individual thing...I would not ask anyone to give me permission to kill an animal legally...we seem to live in a time when internet pundits must be consulted for permission before proceeding...not my cup of tea
DDave
I like this response.
In Ontario it is illegal to shoot a sow with cubs so it doesn't matter how old they are they are not legal game. I hunted in Quebec a few years ago and apparently it is legal to shoot the cubs?????????
Once the sow and cubs have parted ways....and are no longer nursing or staying together they are legal.
Like I said..I would not shoot a sow that had cubs with her and tend to wait a while to make sure none come strolling in late behind a bear that I cannot tell whether is a sow or boar.
Follow the local laws...and in the end the choice is a personal one after the laws are followed.
I don't think it is a good idea to take a sow if she had cubs. If the cubs were able to be on their own, the sow would already have left them.
I don't shoot anything with tits or youngsters. At our shot distances and binos that is pretty easy to discern.
I'm not surprised to see that there are so many others here that look at this the way I do. Like I said earlier, legality aside, I couldn't imagine cub bears having much of a future without the sow.
I can't imagine that our DEC is ignorant on the subject, and the only reason I can think of for it being legal, is maybe for population control. If that's the case, it would seem like there'd be better ways. :dunno: Thanks.
Bob
Bob,
Here in NH, it's the same - all bears are legal in the fall. I've talked with our bear biologist and the rationale is that they are weaned and eating solid food on their own. Another factor is that because bears are so hard to judge ( size and especially gender), honest hunters wouldn't be criminalized by taking a bear perceived to be adult. Most bears taken here are by deer hunters with a tag in pocket and in thick cover, a quick decision.
For me, and since cubs of the year will den again with the sow, I'll pass on them. Those cubs still are needful of the sow in some fashion. Maybe it's learning how best to choose a den to overwinter or where to find early spring food sources when emerging in their second spring.
When they are solo and 1 1/2 year olds in their second autumn, is the earliest I would consider taking one.
Solo bears are nearly impossible to determine sex so I don't worry about if they are boars or sows.
Just my 2 cents.
I would not shoot any animals with babies. It seems to me that if you leave them alone you will insure your future hunting. If you were in the wilderness starving that would be another story.
Hunted in Maine with a friend once...I got a boar on the first night he didn't see anything all week so he complained to the guide that he just wanted to "see" a bear. The guide said he had a bait that sow and Cubs were hitting daily and he certainly see them but to NOT shoot the sow. Well within an hour of sitting the sow and cubs come out and you guessed it, he shot the sow with a rifle. The Cubs were tiny and never left the sow....he ended up chasing them off with a branch then trying to knock them out of a tree with rocks before the guide came in....even still they never left and I can't imagine they lived. I wouldn't shoot a sow with Cubs, personally, legal or not.
Not legal in Va. to shoot a sow with cubs but young bears 100# dressed weight are legal. Have had many chances at young bears but found myself just chuckling at their ignorance. Never shot a bear and probably never will-don't like the meat. Young deer are another matter.
Black bears regularly adopt cubs that have lost their mothers. They even do it with cubs that are not genetically related to them in any way. Outside of humans, black bears are the only animals known to do so.
Ben Kilham's books answer almost every question you could ever have about black bear behavior.