When I read "40# minimum draw weight" in hunting regs, I have assumed it means 40# at your draw length. I'm a recent trad convert and I bought a 66" Whip drawing 38# at 28". I draw to 30" so I should be shooting somewhere around 43#. Am I legal or not?
I drew out on a trad only hunt in McAlester OK and it clearly states minimum draw weight of 40# at 28". That seems like a pretty arbitrary requirement given that the hunter may have a 25" draw length or a 31" draw length. Is this an old argument?
Depends on the warden that checks you, my buddy lives in Oregon and won't buy a bow unless it says the legal draw weight or higher on it and he pulls about the same draw length as you. We all know and understand, but do all the game wardens? I'd call them and ask!
43 at 30 is about the same power as 50 at 28. It should be a no brainer, but if you want to be guaranteed safe from the law, put some math together in an easy to read format and go show the head warden in that area before the season starts.
couldn't you just go to a bow shop and have them measure your draw weight at 30" and have them up one of those little stickers on your bow? Maybe in addition to that take Pavan's advice also. How many times have we got a new bow or set of limbs that have been +/- 2# from what they were marked? I don't see how anyone could hold you up for shooting more then the minimum, especially if it's marked right on your bow.
Well if it says "40 @ 28" it means just that. If you are shooting less then that your bow is illegal.
It may not be right but it's what it is.
Mike
I also draw long.
Personally, I would lightly sand away any such markings and go hunt. I would NOT go with a too light bow, but this would alleviate questions.
That said, I use heavier bows and as such this is a moot point for me.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Well if it says "40 @ 28" it means just that. If you are shooting less then that your bow is illegal.
It may not be right but it's what it is.
Mike
So do they check everyone's draw length? what if a guy only drew 26" and when the game GW came up he anchored on his ear?
28 is 28. It might be crazy but your right everyone would have a 30 inch draw when checked.
Heck I've found that most 28" draw guys actually draw less.
Mike
Minimum draw weight is one of those regulations that is nearly impossible to enforce. I doubt any game warden is going to pull out a weighing scale and then measure your poundage at 28" to verify you are legal. I have never heard of anyone having their bow weight verified in the field by law enforcement in those states where there is a minimum draw weight. That said, the law is the law and if you willingly violate it you should be prepared to accept the consequences.
Probably one of the most bashed around subjects when it comes to bow hunting...here in Alberta for example the legislation is also 40 pounds at 28 inches with a minimum arrow length requirement of 24 inches...allowing for an inch past the riser that could be as little as a 23 inch actual draw length which I read as absolutely legal...depending on the bow that could easily result in an actual draw weight right around 30 pounds...I look after the problem by hunting with bows that are all over 50 pounds draw weight...legal and ethical are not the same thing
DDave
Only once, way back when Iowa still had a minimum, I think it was 35, did a game warden get excited about the weight of my bow. It had no markings at all on it, a fiberglass bamboo longbow that I made myself. He told me it was the law to have the numbers on the bow. I asked him to show me that law, but he did find the 35 pound part. I handed him my bow and said, "Tell me what poundage it is and I will it write on the bow." He did not have a scale, and when he tried to pull it back, I could see what Hill meant when he said, "I could cut washers off your rump." Later that year the bow weighed in at 82 pounds at 26".
this particular game warden was actually very cordial, any logical game warden would realize that 43 at 30" is a lot more than 40 at 28", but then it could be possible that you can run into one that just wants to be a problem.
IMO it says that a minimum of 40# at 28" so how could more than the minimum be wrong? I am not suggesting breaking the law by any means, I truly believe you are within the law, confirm with the GW.
38@28" is illegal
40@27" is illegal
43@30" legal
It didn't say you have to be 40@28 it said that 40@28 is the minimum and since you are 43@30 you are legal. Think of it this way, if the speed limit is 40 MPH and you are driving 40 MPH but your speedometer reads 45 MPH, are you speeding? No and you cannot be ticked for speeding. The sticker from the bow shop would clear up any questions.
Mike [/qb][/QUOTE]So do they check everyone's draw length? what if a guy only drew 26" and when the game GW came up he anchored on his ear? [/QB][/QUOTE]
This is too funny.
I can see it happening.
Your going to get ticketed if your bow is not a minimum of 40 @ 28 and probably on the original graphic on the bow.
I've have had the pleasure of dealing with F&G people all over the world and the one thing that is common is that the letter of the law is enforced in the easiest manner.
If you still doubt it, call the folks at McAlester and let us know what they have to say.
Mike
I believe different states say different things. One example as 40 @ 28". That one is pretty specific and can be enforced, maybe. Nothing at all says that the numbers on the bow have to be correct. If I build a bow and write 100 # on my 70 pound bow ( as I read Fred B once did), what law did I break?
Some say 40# at your draw length and some just say 40#. ( of course, the actual poundage is different from state to state.
Most of the regulators that come up with these rules don't know anything about the actual sport and they get their info , hopefully, from state clubs or ranking sportsmen. However, often, in spite of a good try, the written rule just doesn't come out right.
An example might be seen in Wisconsin's rule about broadheads ( if it is even still in the books as such) stating something like..steel broadheads must be sharp. Says nothing about plastic ones, or more importantly, stone, or heck, titanium even.
I think if you are close, you should make the effort to do something to ensure a non trad warden who is checking you in the field feels comfortable with your choice. Know your stuff and be confident about it. Or, just boost up just a bit so you are not right at the minimum.
ChuckC
Here in WA, a bow that is 35# @ 28" draw but 40# at 30" draw is illegal. It matters not what the individual draws the bow to. If it does not hit 40# at the 28" draw mark, it's illegal to hunt with.
Oregon states that it is 40 lb at the normal draw length of the hunter, 50 lb for elk. I have a Samik sage that "says" 45 lb on the limbs, but on a scale it is right at 57 lbs at 29.5 inches. Perfectly legal for elk but to avoid problems I use a different bow.
Just spoke to LT Todd Tobey, McAlester game warden, (918) 429-3908 and he said that if your bow says 40# or more and 28" or more then you are legal. I spesificaly asked "If I was hunting and you came up to me to inspect my equipment and the sticker on my bow said 43@30" what would be your response" LT Tobey responded with "your perfectly legal, have a nice day" .... By all means do your due diligence and don't take what someone said they heard over the internet, but according to the McAlester game warden your fine. Enjoy your hunt!!!
when I am checking a person bow in field first thing we look at is lbs# wrote or stamped on the bow compound,or Trad bow if not marked we just ask so be careful how you answer and stamp your bow about 5 # over your state min .#50 IS A SAFE BET ...I am no warden just a hunter asking questions in the field trying see what lb most people hunt with .90% say they draw 1 inch more than their correct draw length with Trad ,compound have a back wall. Beware your mouth(EGO) is your worse piece of movable equipment.
Here in Pa. I don't trust the wardens to much, so I always hunted with a bow marked correctly. Hunters choice, but I don't care to give them anymore cash then I have to. LOL!
This hunt is held on Federal land and is under their jurisdiction. Have you ever dealt with a military MP and had a problem. We did at McAlester a few years back. We missed the turn into the shoot and after turning around stopped and took a pic of a MOAB mock up they have. It was cool until the MPs showed up at the shoot and tried to take the camera.
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
This hunt is held on Federal land and is under their jurisdiction. Have you ever dealt with a military MP and had a problem. We did at McAlester a few years back. We missed the turn into the shoot and after turning around stopped and took a pic of a MOAB mock up they have. It was cool until the MPs showed up at the shoot and tried to take the camera.
Mike
Only dealt with Military Police everyday for 6 years. I think this is being nuked out a little bit. if the op's bow is marked 40@28" OR more how could it be illegal?
It's not marked 40 @ 28, it's 38 @ 28 and that's the problem.
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
It's not marked 40 @ 28, it's 38 @ 28 and that's the problem.
Mike
Mike, i understand that. But if he gets the bow remarked 43@30" then what would the problem be?
QuoteOriginally posted by 2bird:
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
It's not marked 40 @ 28, it's 38 @ 28 and that's the problem.
Mike
Mike, i understand that. But if he gets the bow remarked 43@30" then what would the problem be? [/b]
I can't speak to OK law, but what the bow draws at 30" is irrelevant if the law states a certain poundage at 28" draw. Here it's 40 @ 28". 43 @ 30" would be illegal to hunt with if it's drawing 38 @ 28". The draw weight at 28" must be 40# or more. Not sure about OK, but that's how it is here.
I can understand their desire for a simple, easy to enforce rule whether it makes sense to me or not. After reading all your replies I'm seeing that maybe they simply want to know what the weight is at 28". It's their chosen point of reference. My draw length is not a factor to them I suppose. I could mark the bow 43#@30" but they can simply say that doesn't give them the info they want. It may just be one of those arbitrary laws that I have to live with.
I'll take a heavier bow with me and check out the scene before hunting with my Whip if I think they'll be cool with it. I actually just ordered a heavier Whip but the delivery will be cutting it very close. I'm not getting my hopes up. I specified 50# at 30" but maybe I need to have him mark the 28" weight to be safe. Should be 45# or so.
Thanks for all your replies!
Talking with different game wardens will get you very different answers, it's like asking politicians for an honest answer or a yes or no answer.
I think putting 40#@28" will take care of it.
Up here it's pretty simple....40# @ 28" for deer, 50# @ 28" for black bear and moose..of course it's converted to METRIC...
When the Conservation Officer checks your bow, it doesn't matter what it says on it as far as the weight at a certain draw length...it had better be what the regulations state..40# @ 28" etc or more on "HIS" bow scale or else...PAY-UP.
In Illinois the rule is "A bow must at least have 40 pounds of draw weight at some point within a 28 inch draw". So if my bow is marked at least 40# @ 28", I am good. I don't think the game wardens in Illinois care what my DL is. They have determined that a bow marked 40# @ 28" is lethal enough for hunting.
Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by COMPOUNDLESS IN CONCRETE:
Here in WA, a bow that is 35# @ 28" draw but 40# at 30" draw is illegal. It matters not what the individual draws the bow to. If it does not hit 40# at the 28" draw mark, it's illegal to hunt with.
This right here^
I don't know why this is even a discussion. If the law states '40# @ 28"' Then, the bow must pull 40# @ the 28" mark. You might get a level headed warden that lets you go, but just because one says it's ok, doesn't mean he speaks for every LEO out there. LEO opinion doesn't matter, they are often wrong. It is the written law that matters and that is what you will be judged by if you are brought before a judge, or if you fight the ticket before a judge. I'm no lawyer, but I guarantee any lawyer would tell you that it would be illegal regardless if you draw past 28".
Technicalities aside, if you just marked the bow as 43# or 43# @ 28", it is very unlikely that a LEO will take the time to weigh your bow. You might be lying and technically breaking the law, but you would be within the spirit of the law in my mind so I would have a clear conscious, but it depends how your moral compass guides you and if you're willing to take the risk. After all, if Barney Fife gets all technical and breaks out the scale then you're caught.
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
Well if it says "40 @ 28" it means just that. If you are shooting less then that your bow is illegal.
It may not be right but it's what it is.
Mike
X2. In Illinois, it says 40#@28" and that's exactly what the law requires.
Simple solution...move to Missouri where there isn't a minimum draw weight.
Colorado has a minimum 35#. No mention of draw length! As pertains to CO, you can't rely on the language in the big game brochure. If you read the actual statute for any of our hunting and fishing brochures you find additional language that may or may not be relevant to your situation.
The bow I'll Hunt with this year exceeds the letter of the law but has no markings on it. No warden I ever met in the field ever asked questions about my bow. I doubt if they have any provision in the field to check draw weight.
Scenario; warden examines bow in the field. There are no markings. Warden produces a scale and checks draw weight then cites hunter for being under.
Hunter goes to court and challenges the accuracy of the scale. Hunter requests a certificate of accuracy for the scale that precedes the date of the citation. Hunter requests a demonstration of the accuracy of the scale in court. Wonder what the outcome would be?
I'm not a hair splitter and not at all adversarial, but you have to consider that those are just a few of the things that the warden and the prosecutor might anticipate and probably serve to discourage attempts to enforce this type of law.
Years back the CO regs said the bow had to be able to cast an arrow a certain minimum distance. Wouldn't that field check be a hoot!
Establishing minimum limits for archery equipment comes down to game managers trying to ensure that weapons are reasonably adequate for the purpose (clean kills). Some states also disallow .22 caliber firearms for hunting deer, again in consideration of general adequacy. Light equipment can kill but sometimes there's a fine line between being adequate and being risky. State regs walk that line all the time.
Experienced wardens have seen lots of tricks. Re-labeling bow's specs (especially if poorly done) might invite suspicion even if intent was to clarify rather than mislead. Why invite potential trouble?
If it were me I'd use a heavier bow.
To me this is a mute point as I shoot 53#'s on all my bows. Certain game has a minimum draw of 50# up here and others have minimum of 45#.
What surprises me, and mind you I have never been check, but I met a Wildlife Trooper here in Alaska that has an unfletched arrow in his truck that is marked from 24" to 32". In theory he would have you draw the bow back to anchor and take a measurement reading. Compare that to the specs on your bow and give +/- 2lbs per inch.
Pretty simple to me. I think it's the most thought out process for determining poundage that I've heard so far. Granted published weights on bows is a crap shoot in many cases.
Anyway, that's what I got.
Here is Illinois' law. The bow must be drawn to 40# at some point within 28." If you draw beyond 28" to reach 40#, it is illegal.
"Legal Archery Equipment
• A long, recurve or compound bow with a minimum pull of 40 pounds at some point within a 28-inch draw."
Phone a CO and ask, they don't bite. locally it changes, in Saskatchewan min. is 40 lbs.
Well, I emailed Dan Toelke and told him my predicament. By the end of the day he emailed back and said he got my new bow started early so I'll get it in plenty of time to get it dialed in and get some arrows set up for it before my hunt. I asked him to label it at 28" (should be about 45#) just to be safe. That's customer service at its best! Thanks Dan.
I like the Alaska trooper's method of carrying an arrow to measure your draw length best. The 40# @ 28" reg is so arbitrary. My 9 year old son can dray my 38# bow to his 19 inch draw length easily so I know he could draw 2 pounds more. That means he would be legal with a 40@28 bow even though he is only pulling 15-20 pounds at his length. I wouldn't let him do it but it demonstrates the absurdity of the regulation. Sorry to whine, I'm sure somebody put a lot of thought into that law. It is what it is and Dan's got me fixed up so problem solved. Thanks again for the replies.
In 10 years of bow hunting in Ohio, I have never had anyone check my bow. Actually, I've never even had a conservation officer talk to me while bow hunting.
Gun season.... I've been checked, but never during bow season. No idea why, but I'm guessing it will never be a problem. My bow is well above legal minimum though, so it isn't a worry.
Question. If the law says 40# at 28" draw, does it address the archer's draw length? If the bow has these specs, and the law does not specifically state that it has to be drawn this distance, an argument can be made that any bow that draws 40# at 28" is legal, based on the language of the law, regardless of the archer's draw length. Any lawyers in the crowd who can speculate on this.
That is one side of the problem with this law. It doesn't specifically call that out. A 40 # at 28" bow drawn only 26" is apparently technically legal, but a 38# at 28" bow drawn to 30" is not.
Ove time, these can be changed, but only by addressing it with the folks in charge and enlightening them.
Is there a way to word it so that it works ? AND,
in reality, truthfully, I also have never been checked for this (I have hardly EVER been checked by a warden while bowhunting) in my bowhunting career.
Is this one of those rules that, for most states and for most CO's is meant to be a guidance and not worth fussing with unless it is obviously abused ?
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by Hummer3T:
Phone a CO and ask, they don't bite. locally it changes, in Saskatchewan min. is 40 lbs.
As sensible as that sounds what the call might do is remind that CO that they maybe ought to be checking more...my wise old dad taught me long ago "if you might not like the answer do not ask the question"
DDave
And then. . . there is the train of thought that says not everybody can do everything. I wanted to be a brain surgeon, but I am too stupid.
The minimum draw rules are really not all that high. If you can't physically draw that much for a shot or two, are you really gonna be able to handle the rest of the story ? Climbing a tree.. putting up a treestand.. climbing a mountain, dressing out that bull, carrying the meat out,dragging that deer etc ?
If you are strong-like-bull, but just can't handle the bow because of shoulder issues, well, maybe this is the time to use technology rather than just see how low you are allowed to go.
In spite of our teasing, it is not a sin, and in fact I bet the vast majority of us would rather see you do what it takes to do it right, than see how low you can go.
I admit, I am ( so far, knock on wood) not even close to the lower limit and it doesn't usually even enter my mind.
ChuckC
I believe the law should specify the draw weight at your draw length,there's to many variables otherwise.I have a factory produced bow that maybe at the time of testing the draw weight was correct but it certainly is not now,time and weather will do that.Also some bows may not be marked or marking is not readable.A Wardens discretion is key.
2bird called the base and the base warden seems to be very understanding, but I fully agree that if there are going to be minimums, there should some reasonable latitude built into it. The odd part is that numbers on bows are just numbers, I have seen some under forty pound bows that can shoot the same arrow at the same draw as fast as some 50 pound bows. I suppose they are thinking that putting an absolute into a law is better than nothing, but it quite often is not objective logic.
Kentucky doesn't have a minimum draw weight.
here in Mass as long as it says 40# on the bow they leave it at that and could careless how far you draw it,, if you happen to over draw a bow that says #35 to legally make the 40 you better hope you have an understanding game warden who understands the draw vs poundage factor because most of the game wardens here shoot compounds.
Another factor is how the makers mark their bows. If you read the AMO standard, it allows marking a bow at a nice round number as long as it is within a certain number of pounds. If you look at the bows by the big factory builders, their bows are mostly marked at nice round numbers in increments of 5#. That means if you take the makers mark for fact, you may be under weight.
OTOH, most of the custom builders seem inclined to mark them at the actual measured weight.
Then there is the question of whether or not the warden knows how to measure bow weight correctly.
The trooper in Alaska seems to be writing citations with an arbitrary assumption that every bow gains two pounds per inch. NOT!
None of the archery equipment regulations seem to address really. In the end, the desired outcome is to push a Sharp broadhead through both lungs. There are too many equipment variables to adequately regulate that unless we require very heavy bows and heavy arrows. That's unlikely to happen since hunters and manufacturers would resist.
Colorado allows a bow hunter to pursue elk with a 35# bow and a 250 grain arrow. Or, a 35# compound with an over draw and a 200 grain arrow with a mechanical head! Wonder how many hunters select marginal equipment simply because the wildlife dept seems to endorse it? The only ones in CO who seem to be critical of the reg are the bow hunters.
IMO it's better to rely on education by the wildlife dept and bow hunting organizations.
Virginia here -- this is what's on our books: "Arrows used for hunting big game must have a minimum width head of 7/8 of an inch, and the bow used for such hunting must be capable of casting a broadhead arrow a minimum of 125 yards." No mention of poundage at all
Glad Dan got things worked out so you won't have to worry about it.
There is no minimum draw weight here in Tx.
Bisch