Not everyone believes or accepts the heavy arrow, higher foc or single bevel stuff. I dropped draw weight and got into these things due to concerns for penetration. This shot started out as broadside at 20 yards but at the shot, the deer whirled and it hit the neck. Stuff happens...
A friend of mine shared this...this was a GA deer experience. I thought it might compliment KYTJ's thread on the single bevel. Perhaps some of you will find it enlightening:
Here are the photos from Harold's deer. Arrow specs: 658 grains; 28% FOC; 190 Grizzly sharpened with KME knife sharpener.
The deer reacted before the arrow arrived and it ended up as an inadvertent frontal hit. Range was just over 20 yards.
This first photo is the entrance wound.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%201%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%201%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
Below is the skinned out neck. Upper arrow is entrance. The 2 lower arrows show a huge cut along the top of the spine.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%202%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%202%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
Here's a better view of the cut along the top of the spine, made by the BH. Note that the dorsal processes are missing.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%203%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%203%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
Here's a further dissection showing those 'missing' dorsal processes. There are five severed processes. They are shown here with the connecting tissues still holding them together.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%204%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%204%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
The broadhead then entered through the spine, splitting three vertebra lengthwise. Note the broadhead rotation as the spine was penetrated.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%205%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%205%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
The broadhead barely clipped one lobe of the left lung then passed along the left wall of the thorax, inside the rib cage and left side of the abdominal cavity. Below is the damaged lung. Note that it is a hole – not a 'slice'.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%206%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%206%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
This next photo shows the entire left side of the skinned carcass. Upper yellow arrow is neck entrance. Green arrow is where the arrow penetrated the spine and entered the thorax. Note the degree of tissue damage the rotating, single-bevel head has caused all along the arrow's path.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%207%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%207%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
Here are close up photos of the tissue damage along the left side of the thorax, abdomen and hip.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%208%20Web%20Size.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/DavidLandis/media/Single%20bevel%20damage/Harolds%20Deer%208%20Web%20Size.jpg.html)
The arrow passed through the left hip, breaking the femur then exiting, for a complete pass through. Needless to say there was no blood trail as the deer dropped instantly and never even wiggled. This degree of soft tissue damage is typical of that seen when using a quality, truly sharp single-bevel broadhead. It could easily be mistaken as the damage from a high-velocity rifle bullet.
After going thru this it is our judgment that anyone using a quality single-bevel broadhead and not seeing this type of tissue damage does not have their broadheads truly sharp!
All I can say is WOW
We had a broadhead shoot at our club the other night, my wife missed the block target and hit the 2x4 on a bag target frame and I thought oh great, I'll have to dig that out now and didn't have time. Got to the arrow and it had totally split that 2x4 like an axe hit it. And that was a left bevel on right wing feathers. I bet the arrow wouldn't even have slowed down if the feathers and bevels were matched!
David,
I've no idea how much difference the correct feather match to bevel makes... I just do it "cause".
I've often heard folks lament that "ain't hunting buffalo"... well, me either, but here was a deer in the East, broadside at 20 yards, and at the shot it spun enough to get hit in the neck and come out the flank... So with bows, no matter how fast, stuff happens... Sure did a wicked job on the meat though... Oye...
Gracious! :eek:
Great case study! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Good thread. Can you tell us the poundage of the bow and what type of shaft material?
I emailed the fellow, Harold, from GA to ask h is bow weight... but haven't heard back yet...
I'm jumping to an ASSUMED conclusion here but with that EFOC %, I'm guessing it was a carbon...hard to get that much on other type shafting...
Soon as I get a reply... I don't know h ow often Harold checks email...
Just got an email from an associate of this chap... turns out he's relegated to lighter draw weights due to arthritis (boy does that ring home)... Best estimates are that his older style, second hand, RC bow is generating with that arrow weight, somewhere between 150 and 140 fps... so as he put it,
"...It's about the bh performance, not the bow." I figured given those pics, it would have been like an 80# bow!
Hope that sheds some light...
There was not a draw weight on this older bow... but he could draw it which means with his condition, it wasn't heavy... I can relate!
Nice of u all to shear this with us. I love this foc stuff and I don't hunt Buffalo either. Just me !
We had a broadhead shoot at our club the other night, my wife missed the block target and hit the 2x4 on a bag target frame and I thought oh great, I'll have to dig that out now and didn't have time. Got to the arrow and it had totally split that 2x4 like an axe hit it. And that was a left bevel on right wing feathers. I bet the arrow wouldn't even have slowed down if the feathers and bevels were matched!
What kinda deer is that NJ road jumper darn deer has a 4 foot long neck lol looks like you dragged him behind a 18 wheeler by the neck for 100 miles...
QuoteOriginally posted by bowheadhunter:
What kinda deer is that NJ road jumper darn deer has a 4 foot long neck lol looks like you dragged him behind a 18 wheeler by the neck for 100 miles...
Can't address that issue, but given all the damage to the neck tissue, I'd not be surprised it lengthened a bit, would you?
:jumper:
With a neck that long that deer could look up and down the turnpike both ways and around the corner than kiss his Butt good by by,,lol what some people will do to get attention here,, :bigsmyl:
Dunno where in GA but it was GA deer, not NJ... but whatever. As long as it amuses, that's good nuff I guess!
Didn't focus on the neck that much, but that it traversed a deer fore to aft, at 20 yards and now knowing it was a very old RC bow with no markings, but super sharp head...my, oh, my... :scared:
Just pulling your deer neck my friend have fun with what ever broad head you use,,,
QuoteOriginally posted by bowheadhunter:
Just pulling your deer neck my friend have fun with what ever broad head you use,,,
Per your own rhetoric, I'd guess that poor deer's neck is long enough...
I love to cook off a deer neck roast, but I might just have to make that one into burger meat were it mine...
ME? I've been using some older Tusker single bevel ground by KME some years back... but I doubt the brand matters as long as it's strong and sharp...
I shot double bevel for years and killed a few deer! Even killed one with a 3 blade WW, but as I dropped draw weight, I figured it was easier to push 2 blades thru then 3!
As you say, whatever blows one's skirt up, shoot it and confidence is a big factor. Just wanted to share after seeing this I thought y'all might appreciate some visuals! :D :thumbsup:
sorry about that...hit the wrong icon and wanted to edit, not quote...so deleted this one...doh!
Old age?? 1/2 heimers? Oh, well... :(
There is no downside to hunting with a single bevel high foc arrow. None.
Impressive penetration and tissue destruction. Would have guessed a heavy poundage bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by katman:
Impressive penetration and tissue destruction. Would have guessed a heavy poundage bow.
I get teased about my 585 gr. arrows with 300 up front as being "Saw Logs"... and am shooting only 47# out of my Sas R/D and never clocked it as don't have one of those gizmos...
It's encouraging to think a light draw old school, ancient RC would get that type performance...weren't the bow for sure... had to be the arrow and head.
Gives me hope... and a "nanner nannar" to those naysayers about my Saw Logs! :jumper:
Sas bow sounds like a winner what is R/D ?
Thinking of bigfoot recurve I want the fastest smoothest one he makes with the most stable limb materials?? is a Ace broad head a same type cutting head in your post,
QuoteOriginally posted by bowheadhunter:
Sas bow sounds like a winner what is R/D ?
Thinking of bigfoot recurve I want the fastest smoothest one he makes with the most stable limb materials?? is a Ace broad head a same type cutting head in your post,
Joe, that's a good question.
R/D means simply Reflex/deflex..ie, the limb has a double bend instead of a simple D shape and it creates more power.
You need to ask Kirk about which is more of those things you want...he's a straight shooter and won't BS you to get a quick sale... AS for stable, Kirk i s a fanatic about limb stability, vertical and horizontal...such that what you put into the draw goes into the arrow, not the bow on release...
I'm not familiar with all the heads...someone else might be. I
THOUGHT :knothead: The Ace were double bevel but things change.
Next ones I buy will be from Bill Dunn of Zipper bows/Grizzly heads and go the Grizzly head route... they're great steel, super strong and affordable. There are a running ton of good heads out there...and they don't have to be Single Bevel to work...just single bevel DO seem to have a few advantages that sold me!
THANK U Doc working out a bow deal soon with bigfoot,,
Impressive stuff Doc Nock.
I shot this antelope with a similar setup,190 gr Grizzly,rebeveled to 25 degrees by Ron at KME,700 gr,27% FOC arrow from a 53# recurve.
The other side was the entrance.The arrow smashed through the entry side humerus and the shaft was sheared of in two places,almost immediately by both shoulders.The broadhead was protruding through the exit side skin and this probably contributed to the size of the exit hole,even though the shaft had sheared off right behind the head.
Both shoulders had that same amount of hemorrhaging and I remember saying it looked like damage caused by a high powered rifle.The animal ran hard and was down in 40 yds.I also believe that the sharpness of that head was a big contributor.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/jbrandenburg/2009Antelope5MP014.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/jbrandenburg/media/2009Antelope5MP014.jpg.html)
That exit looks exactly like all those does I've shot with a 30-30
Hey doc nock . Miss you and killdeer down at the Baltimore shoot jiber jawin. Good to see your still shooting.
Thanks Dan Bree,
Yeah, heard Killy weren't there and itd be a long drive for Moi!
Elkbreath,
Exactly. That wasn't my deer, but ones I've shot look similar...not thru and thru front to back with lower poundage OLD bow, but hey... mine had so much damage it wasn't funny...
JimB,
Mine ran a short distance (30-40 yards on the two I got with single bev) and both had so much tissue damage I was sure it was my deer for a second, once skinned, but there was that S entrance on a broadside!
Joe,
Your best source of all things related will be Kirk himself. Get that order going... the wait time isn't terrible, but it's maddening anyway!
GREAT pixs and post Doc :thumbsup: .....shot my 1st critter, a hog, with a grizzly last spring and was impressed. Hopefully will get to do further "field testing" in a couple more weeks but dang that is some impressive damage.
I know it's hard to measure but I got think that the advantage of the single bevel has got to be enhanced by the sharpness that we can get on them. In other words back in the day with just file sharpened they were good but with all the great info out nowadays with how to sharpen them and tools like the KME that get em REALLY sharp I cant help but wonder how much that is improving the results that we are seeing???????
JOhn,
This guy has been playing with single bevel and EFOC for a while, says he... and you see their conclusion (End of copy) is that if you DO NOT get that level of damage from SB heads, they're not as sharp as they should be...
I'm sharpening impaired... least till Ron talked me thru the KME... and then went from STOS double to single and they really get (and stay) sharp better then what I used to use to sharpen...(draw thru type). That one put a very thin, fine edge on (19*) and it just didn't stay sharp...too delicate... I LIKE 25*.
Doc,
a fine edge on a properly hardened steel edge at 19 degrees is not too thin....on a soft or poorly heat treated edge, yes...that's too thin...
Most broadheads are under 55 RC...so they're easy to sharpen..and that's getting too soft...like an anvil..grizzlies are H/T'ed like a tool ought to be- and that's why people had so much trouble with the old ones.
Great stuff,Doc. Thanks for sharing.
OK, very impressive. Now pardon me but whator who is KME?
QuoteOriginally posted by Kelly:
OK, very impressive. Now pardon me but whator who is KME?
A very nice edge sharpening system.
http://www.kmesharp.com/
Ray
QuoteOriginally posted by cacciatore:
Great stuff,Doc. Thanks for sharing.
Not my stuff, but passed to me as part of my own ongoing education and learning...thought a few here might find it interesting.
Kelly,
Ray made it easy. Ron @ KME has walked many of us thru his great system... I had ones similar to the KME and still couldn't get things sharp... thought I was cursed.
Those other "systems" had too much slop in the guide holes where the KME is precise so you repeat the same angle each Stroke (Knife Sharpener)(now with BH jaws available), repeatability is as important in raising a good sharp edge as it is in repeating the same moves when shooting to be accurate!
Doc, hope all is well with you. Thanks for the pics. Check this out
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=142335#000000
Gilbert,
That is way impressive!!! Thanks for posting that. I missed that post as January was pretty hectic for me having surgery and just getting settled into the area and fighting a very cold season here with a heat pump! :rolleyes: :knothead:
Still haven't found anywhere to hunt here in TN, my adopted home... but hope springs eternal... Do have invite for a couple days in Central TN, just nothing close to home here for short jaunts...
Thanks for the well wishes...
I finally ordered a pack of 185 gr Grizzlies. Plus a 75 gr adapter = 260 gr.
I'm all set up with 250 gr VPA 3 blades but if these shoot the same I'll put both in the quiver.
Hopefully 10 grains heavier won't be noticeable.
Hope you dont mind me bringing this one back up. This years doe antelope shoulder blade. 200 gr left single bevel 3:1 tradepoint. My shot was high but the broadhead blew thru the shoulder and took out spine. She went no where.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Antelope%202015/DSCN1223.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Antelope%202015/DSCN1223.jpg.html)
You can see the crack in the bone leading down and to the left. You can also see the S shape that splits the bone.
Being a old AF medic the hole and Fracture were easy for me to see. Someone mentioned that maybe not so easy for others see if this helps. The blue is where the broadhead went thru the scapula. The bone then closed around the shaft, but not before the spining of single bevel split the bone. Inside the yellow running to the left out of the initial puncture of the bone is a crack or split in the shoulder running out the edge of the bone.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Antelope%202015/DSCN1216_1.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Antelope%202015/DSCN1216_1.jpg.html)