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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Jim Maes on July 17, 2015, 02:30:00 PM

Title: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Jim Maes on July 17, 2015, 02:30:00 PM
Hey guys I was wondering how well the hot melt is holding brass inserts into carbon shafts.  I've used epoxy in the past but now that I'm using 100 grain brass inserts I started to use hot melt to make it easier to reuse the inserts when I break the shaft. Any problems with them pulling out in the targets?  Thanks
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: bretto on July 17, 2015, 02:32:00 PM
Get the stuff from Big Jim's it holds like nothing else!!!!!!!

bretto
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: kevsuperg on July 17, 2015, 02:33:00 PM
The only thing I have heard is to use the blue low temp glue. The regular glue may need more heat to soften and could damage the carbon.  
I prefer high impact gorilla superglue.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: shreffler on July 17, 2015, 03:12:00 PM
Everyone swears by it but I just cant get the darn stuff to work.

I've bought shafts from Big Jim both with the inserts installed and without...the ones Big Jim put in with hot melt glue were brass and have held up great - no problems after a year of use. The ones I've installed were aluminum and got knocked out immediately.

I melted mine with a lighter, but maybe an alcohol burner is the only way to get the glue to melt properly and stick? I guess I've just never had good luck with the stuff at all whenever I've tried to do it myself.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: ammoeater on July 17, 2015, 03:52:00 PM
I always swab the inside of the arrow with a Q-tip dipped in rubbing alcohol, and then scuff it up with a brass rifle bore brush.  Works well for me.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Caleb Monroe on July 17, 2015, 04:03:00 PM
This is the way I do it.

Clean the inside of the shaft and insert with a q tip soaked in acetone.
Heat up insert with propane torch tuned down as low as possible. (Field point screwed into insert held with pliers)
Melt glue and apply to insert.
Install insert.
Dunk in cold water.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Doc Nock on July 17, 2015, 04:05:00 PM
Ok...fwiw.

My experience isn't quite like the above folks.

for my own arrows, I would go so far as to sand with rolled up sandpaper and then swab with qtip and alcohol.

Where I worked, we'd cut carbons for customers, tap out the dust and use the brown Bohning hot melt in a small melting pot we kept in the back where we built arrows, heat the insert with a torch, then dip in hot melt (melted) and insert, push down and wipe off the lip ring.

Give to customer who would pay for arrows and 15 minutes or less later be shooting into that damnable layers masonite backstop. I'd often hurt my back pulling arrows, but we only had occasions where 2x in 3 yrs I heard of any inserts (alum) pulling out.

I also personally kept a cup of cool water next to me and once I heated the insert and put hot melt on it, reheated to get the hot melt flowing, then put in shaft and wipe off ring, I'd dip in the cool water worrying about the heat on the carbon.

I quit doing that oh...4 years ago and am still shooting some of those arrows! FWIW...gotta be the type hot melt I'd think....
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: fnshtr on July 17, 2015, 04:22:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by kevsuperg:
The only thing I have heard is to use the blue low temp glue. The regular glue may need more heat to soften and could damage the carbon.  
I prefer high impact gorilla superglue.
X2

I have used the heat glue and lost a lot of inserts/points in relatively soft material (soil, foam targets, etc.). This was with brass inserts.

Since using the Gorilla "high impact" glue... none lost!
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Doc Nock on July 17, 2015, 04:40:00 PM
Can this HIGH IMPACT Gorilla glue be removed with heat?

I LIKE being able to take apart, salvage and even change shafts... inserts... as my bow activities change...

I had some 2 part epox stuff once and there was no way to get it out...period!   :(
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: kevsuperg on July 17, 2015, 05:16:00 PM
I get my inserts out with the drill bit in the shaft trick.
Low gentle heating of a screwed in fieldpoint works too but just a touch too much heat and I'll melt the carbon.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Orion on July 17, 2015, 05:20:00 PM
I put 100 grain brass inserts (and 75 and 50 grain) into Easton Axis shafts with hot melt.  Have never had one pull out.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Doc Nock on July 17, 2015, 06:23:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by kevsuperg:
I get my inserts out with the drill bit in the shaft trick.
Low gentle heating of a screwed in fieldpoint works too but just a touch too much heat and I'll melt the carbon.
Interesting.  Admittedly, I've only done it with beman speed and with GT various styles, but I never in 6 yrs have seen the carbon arrow show any signs of sagging or other over heating...

Seems if there is a Murphy's Law, it will apply to every aspect of archery for sure!
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: MO Bow on July 17, 2015, 06:32:00 PM
scratch up the insude of the shaft
clean with acetone before glueing

i don't use the stuff made for archery any more...i use the softer craft store hot glue-gun glue.  works perfectly and haven't had an insert come out.  i've had issues with ferr-l-tite and other products from being a little too brittle.  had a lot of issues with inserts or points (on woodies) coming off in cold weather.

a lot cheaper too...you can get a lifetime supply for $5
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Mohillbilly on July 17, 2015, 06:38:00 PM
+1 on regular craft store glue.  Apply liberally as applying.  Can sink in fence and pull and pull.  Has worked for 15-20 years.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Possum Head on July 17, 2015, 06:54:00 PM
Like Mohillbilly I've used generic hot melt, Easton's brand, Ferrultite ang Big Jim's on my 100 gr. brass and never had any problems. Though any prep work before adhesives is always a good idea I have not bothered with inserts. A little heat apllied to your point and out she comes. You're making a good call as I've reused my brass many times.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: bulldog18 on July 17, 2015, 06:59:00 PM
I use Big Jim's hot melt as well. I do no shaft prep. Sticks very well with no problems.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: kevsuperg on July 17, 2015, 08:04:00 PM
Doc nock, yea I've had a few GT trad's heat up to the point where the shaft twisted like soft plastic just about the time the insert would let go.  
Admittedly these were inserts glued in by someone else. Could have been epoxy not sure.
I think this weekend I'll try the hot melt. I have to tune some carbons before ETAR.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: kevsuperg on July 17, 2015, 08:18:00 PM
CAN I USE EASTON HOT MELT GLUE FOR MY CARBON SHAFTS?

" Easton does not recommend any type of hot melt glue for any carbon arrows. Heat will damage the structure of carbon shafts and should always be avoided."

Found this on eastons site.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: tracker12 on July 17, 2015, 08:59:00 PM
Another Big Jim glue user
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Doc Nock on July 17, 2015, 09:28:00 PM
Good thing I don't use Easton arrows!  :)

As shared, I've only used my brown hot melt on GT's and a set of Bemans.  

I apply a vise grip to the field point, heat the field point and keep pressure on the vise grip till it twists out.

For my arrows at home, I immediately dip in cool water...let dry, clean out the inside and ONLY heat the insert when reapplying or initially applying the glue, never the shaft...

There is such variance in the results reported here... I find that on many topics.

I've had miserable luck with hobby clear/white hot melt sticks...yet others have long experience of positive results

Go figure.  Has to be in the formula whether the clear hobby stuff or the brown archery stuff.  

only thing that makes any sense...
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: fnshtr on July 17, 2015, 10:37:00 PM
3 rivers says to not use hot melt glue on carbon shafts. Like I posted before, I used hot melt for a long time. Someone suggested the high impact gorilla glue and it works great.

However, I have never attempted to remove inserts glued in with that type of glue. I've never needed to yet! Could be a problem.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Ray Lyon on July 18, 2015, 08:03:00 AM
I've never had a problem with the cylinder block hot melt glue from Kustom King  (same as big Jim's ) on my Easton Axis and aluminum or brass inserts. I don't do any prep.  Just warm the glue and put a little dab around the bottom of the insert (it will spread up the insert as it goes in the shaft) and warm the insert just enough to soften the glue.  Push in with the little plastic green tool from Easton and leave the shaft lying horizontally until it cools. If I'm getting some excess glue towards the top of the insert as its going in i wipe it off BEFORE the insert is completely in the shaft.  
I've done this for years since Easton Axis shafts first came out.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Doc Nock on July 18, 2015, 08:35:00 AM
Thanks, Ray.

Thanks, fnshtr.

Removal o f those expensive 100 gr. brass inserts is a priority for me...

I even have used hot melt to affix "over-footing" to lighter wall target carbon to improve behind the head impact resistance.

I totally flattened a field point overshooting a creek gator shot and blew the nock out.  I checked that arrow at home and it was dollar sound and the glue never let loose.

With all the variances, I have to continue to believe (can't prove) there are many different glue type formulas out there... and lucking into the right one is paramount.

As for heating carbons, if I were making or selling carbons, I'd say the same thing...as one poster pointed out, done to a bit of excess, you'll have a rubber arrow that droops or corkscrews from softening.

Since I've shot the same arrows for several years under all sorts of conditions, I have trouble believe judicious use of heat on a field point, removing insert quickly and cooling the shaft, has created any weaknesses.  The way I shoot and mmisss...I'd think I'd be breaking arrows. I lose a few, haven't broken them...  :)

Neat thread to see such varied experiences with different products...I notice references to locally bought on some items, thus leading me to believe there are a lot of variances in products used...
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Possum Head on July 18, 2015, 08:36:00 AM
Not everyone has sense enough to keep their feet out from under push mowers so instead of telling them "hey you dont wanna do that" let's just jack the cost of the mower up and apply a handle lever. The little flashing man on your Toyota dashboard aint enough let's add 50 friggin dings to it so the owner can enjoy it while he goes to check his mail(he'll pay for the add on). What these carbon shaft manufacturers wont tell you is, it's o.k. to apply enough heat to soften the glue and then back off. In doing so, some moron
would roast weenies on it at the hunting camp and later while shooting at game with it wonder why he ended up with a hand full of carbon fiber.    :dunno:   Arrow makers are interested in selling you your next dozen arrows period. They dont care that hot melt is your choice for an adhesive. They would rather you choose an alternative glue than go through the motions of
helping you properly use a product they dont offer.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Possum Head on July 18, 2015, 08:45:00 AM
That does it. I'm quitting hot melt. I just learned that with enough heat you can destroy carbon, wood, cane, and aluminum.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Bullfrog 1 on July 18, 2015, 10:22:00 AM
The only issues I have had is on Gold Tips for some reason. I don't think the inserts fit as tight as some of the other shafts. I use Big Jims on Beman Centershots and have never had one come out.  Bill
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: imbowhunt10 on July 18, 2015, 11:40:00 AM
X2 on Big Jims hot melt. I used to use epoxy.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Zradix on July 18, 2015, 12:11:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by ammoeater:
I always swab the inside of the arrow with a Q-tip dipped in rubbing alcohol, and then scuff it up with a brass rifle bore brush.  Works well for me.
Me too.. no problems at all.
I just use industrial glue sticks...we have em at work for glueing boxes together.

I do use an alcohol flame for melting...no soot that way.

also, when removing the insert I screw in a field point and heat the point just till the insert gets warm enough to soften the glue enough to remove.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: widow sax on July 18, 2015, 03:24:00 PM
Big Jims hot melt wont use anything else! I have embedded them into wood that took two of use to pull out and insert stays in fine. I also clean the inside of my shafts.     Widow
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Butch Speer on July 18, 2015, 07:53:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by MO Bow:
scratch up the insude of the shaft
clean with acetone before glueing

i don't use the stuff made for archery any more...i use the softer craft store hot glue-gun glue.  works perfectly and haven't had an insert come out.  i've had issues with ferr-l-tite and other products from being a little too brittle.  had a lot of issues with inserts or points (on woodies) coming off in cold weather.

a lot cheaper too...you can get a lifetime supply for $5
X2 I think most peoples problem is not getting the insert hot enough. It needs to melt and run freely on the insert.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Zradix on July 18, 2015, 08:11:00 PM
X3....I think most peoples problem is not getting the insert hot enough. It needs to melt and run freely on the insert.
  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: bowhuntingrn on July 19, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
I use an appropriate sized bore brush (depending on shaft diameter) to scuff up the inside of the shaft and a little sandpaper or sanding sponge on the inserts (aluminum or brass). Clean all of the above with 91% rubbing alcohol. I use an insert tool just because I find it easier than using a field tip. Heat the insert with a pocket torch until it is hot enough to melt the glue and insert quickly. I hold it in place for about 12 - 15 seconds and then place in room temperature glass of water. The glue is Bohning Ferr-L-Tite Cool Flex (the blue stick). I use it because it is available locally. it is far more flexible than standard amber Ferr-L-Tite. I've used the same glue with steel points on woodies. Was at a tournament that had targets that were "eating" points off all the other shooters wood shafts, but my wife, son, and myself never lost one. That's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Msbow on July 19, 2015, 11:48:00 PM
I've never had any problems using hot melt glue when I sanded the inserts and inside of the shafts then rub everything down good with denatured alcohol.

If you use gorilla super glue, you will NOT be able to remove the insert without destroying the shaft. That has been my experience with using gorilla super glue for gluing inserts and then trying to remove them.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: Longbow58 on July 20, 2015, 06:35:00 AM
Big Jim's. All I use anymore.
Title: Re: Hot melt on carbons
Post by: BigJim on July 20, 2015, 06:10:00 PM
Although most hot melt might work, it is not all created equal.  When testing the glues that were sent to us for samples, some failed badly even though they looked nearly the same.

When I do my shafts, I never clean or prep but I also don't cut as they need to be full length.
I just heat the glue with a propane torch and roll the bottom quarter inch or so of insert in glue and set aside until I'm done with all inserts.  I then reheat them one at a time and insert In shaft. They should be heated enough so they slide all the way in without trouble. If they get stiff before they bottom out and you force it, you will probably loose that one.
Good luck, bigjim