I recently walked into my office and noticed a copy of a magazine sitting on my desk. It was put out by the International Hunters Education Association and it didn't take long to figure out why it was sitting where it was. I was a little aghast at what I found inside – so much so that I felt compelled to write a letter, something I never do.
http://www.twistedstave.com/future-of-hunting/
Great letter--I agree completely. Terrible concept to impress upon new hunters, and one that I had to learn the hard way as well, since I had to teach myself to hunt. It took me years to learn that spending all the money on scent-free clothing, sprays, and soaps actually does not help at all, is a complete waste of money, and, like you said, cheapens the experience.
Pete
Excellent letter. Everyone wants to buy success rather than work for it.
Good letter
I am lucky to have grown up in the 50's and 60's. I literally learned to read from Sports Afield magazine, one of my dad's favorites. The old timers taught hunting and outdoor sports, not merchandising. I learned a lot of real information from the publications of the time. Now I rely on magazines dedicated solely to traditional archery for information and relaxation. I was not at all surprised by the content of the magazine articles you saw and am glad you responded to useless information contained therein.
Your letter is an excellent example of how to respond. Intelligent and direct without bashing or accusation. Well done.
Everything is so commercialized now, I rarely read the magazine or watch the show anymore!
Bisch
Well done, Sir.
Good response!
WOW. We know how these things happen, of course. The "sponsor" probably kicks in a big pile of money to help a cash strapped association pay for printing the document in return for running its ad under the guise of educational information.
I was a bowhunter education instructor until the past few years. Was thinking of becoming active again. Sure hope that garbage didn't make it into the bowhunter education instructional manual. If so, I won't be part of it.
very well written
Outstanding Clay! Blows my mind the marketing ploys and unparalleled greed these companies have.
QuoteOriginally posted by wscruggs:
Good letter
Well written!
:clapper: i figured when the ozonics came out , bowhuting jumped the shark..
Makes me laugh. Ozonics. P&Y just jumped on their bandwagon.
Unfortunately, there are too many out there looking for that "quick fix" to put this kind of hokum to bed. I truly admire the guy who came up with the scent-free spray and soap. He knew exactly what he was doing. Never use the stuff. Have to laugh at these TV "stars" who haphazardly spray themselves before hitting the woods, missing probably more than 50% of their clothing. Guess that non-sprayed 50% doesn't have any odor. Once mentioned to a friend of mine, who uses the stuff, that no matter what, you still have to breathe. Great letter by the way.
Nice response to a sad truth these days. It seems that most every one is too busy in the fast paced hustle and bustle of keeping up with the "jones's" that applying shoe leather to ground is slowly being lost and not being passed on to the next generation.
Great letter !!! Agreed , it has gone way overboard with all the products claiming to give you instant success. One thing is guaranteed , if you don't put in the work .............you will eat your tag........LOL
instant gratification. If I can give you success without you having to work for it they'll buy it. Sad but true. Very good response on your part. Thank you for sticking up for real hunting ethics.
The only good thing about all this is I can skip several isles when I'm killing time in the big outdoor stores. I skip all the isles of scent "control' products and the attractants. Don't care much for the game camera isles either.
Okay it is a good letter but let's keep it in perspective. How many use tree stands? That alone improved kill rates by getting hunters up out of sight and kept their sent off the ground.
I agree there needs to be some control but let's be fair - not all technology spelled doom. Just my humble opinion.
I would hazard the guess that many hunters go thru the "kill over the hunt" phase. Stuff over skill. Hopefully the young readers get to looking at the hunt as the challenge. Many here prize their hunts over the kill, skill over techno stuff. Am honored to be among such here
:clapper: :clapper:
I'll add a little story of my own. I recently ran into an old aquantence and we got to talking about bow hunting. I asked him if he had any luck this past season. He told me how he saw the biggest buck he had ever seen at 20 yrds but couldn't get a shot because of some brush. When suddenly the deer jumped and ran off! He said he couldn't for the life of him figure out what happened. I asked him if the wind was right or not or maybe even swirled. Honest to goodness this is what he relied, " I'm not sure, but it shouldn't have mattered! I had on all my scent lock and even had my ozonics going! :dunno:
To be fair I have to admit that I do use dead down wind spray from time to time. But I don't depend on it! I worry more about my approach and wind direction and things like that first and foremost!
my ozonics going! [dunno]
:laughing:
An excellent letter that skewers the modern commercial approach to hunting.
I saw a 'smart phone' mount for your wheelie bow the other day - presumably to video your hunt, take a call or to play Tetris while you sit invisible in your elevated hunting pod with ozonic protection.
The whole thing depressed me so much I had to shoot twice the number of cedar arrows out of my '59 Alaskan before I felt better. ;-)
Excellent letter!
Well done!
QuoteOriginally posted by Gerry:
Okay it is a good letter but let's keep it in perspective. How many use tree stands? That alone improved kill rates by getting hunters up out of sight and kept their sent off the ground.
I agree there needs to be some control but let's be fair - not all technology spelled doom. Just my humble opinion.
Thanks for the comment Gerry but I think you're missing the point. It's not the technology or the companies that I'm poking. It's the ridiculousness of this article being promoted as educational to new hunters. Like I said, this article was supposed to be about "beating a buck's nose" yet they never once mentioned the wind. If they want to include product catalogs, that's fine, but call it what it is. This isn't education, it's advertising. We shouldn't be telling new hunters they need a bunch of junk to be successful. We should be focusing on the thing that has always made hunting great, and that's the personal satisfaction of overcoming the challenges it presents.
ch
Well spoken sir.
Good job. :thumbsup:
Great letter Clay.
Thanks
Amen to that!!
Thanks for writing the letter. Love your humor! Scott
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: the lesson I have learned over the years trying out new gadgets and technology is that it can diminish your hunting skills. Every once in a while we need to step back and see where we are going and remember why we are on this journey in the first place.
The animals we hunt don't read the books we do. Being sent free is misunderstood, everything smells like something especially to deer.Finding what does not spook them is more important and can very with there habitat,and understanding that I think is key. The wind and thermals rule.
Been there...done that..you just have to shake your head and wonder what all they've been missing.
Good letter. My father often offers to buy me subscriptions to a variety of magazines about hunting. I remind him, "Dad, those publications never talk about the kind of hunting I do."
When it comes to scent systems, I get clean and try to hunt the wind as much as possible. As for getting around in the woods; a (sXs)won't get me there. I hike in quietly.
Great letter Clay, my thoughts exactly. All the gadgets and gizmos are what pushed me into traditional archery. My compound bow was constantly needing some adjustment here or there. The sight on my longbow never needs adjustment...
I took a look at the original "article". It's clearly a paid advertisement. There is a big "Scent Control" block in the upper left. There are pictures of their products all over. At the end of the "article" is the Trademark for the "Wildlife Research Center" and on the bottom is the comment "For more info: Circle #26 on the Action Insert Card".
Wildlife Research Center is the name of the company that owns the Scent Killer brand. I agree that's an interesting name choice for a company that sells scent killer.
To me the entire publication wreaks of being a paid advertisement (pun intended). It's likely how the International Hunters Education Association obtains a signficant amount of its funding.
Actually, every 2 page spread from pages 13 - 67 include the comment "For more info: circle #XX on the Action Insert Card" except for 1 page - and that's the page advertising some type of giveaway they are doing.
1. I am glad there are hunter education groups.
2. I have no beef with anyone who hunts legally and ethically no matter the equipment
3. I have no objection to companies advertising and making money
I think the true complaint here is that the entire handbook portrays itself as educational material but the vast majority of it is actually advertising. Nearly every "Article" is set up the same way - there is a company that is pasted all over it and the option to obtain more informatoin by circling a # on the "action insert card".
I did not look at the material they use in their classroom. It's clear that this handbook is given to folks as a "Free" supplement to their hunter education material....at least that's what the intro on the "handbook" states....maybe they discuss field dressing and wind in the actual course material, that I can't speak to.
Snake oil....selling strong for centuries....
Why? People love technology and advertising can be shown many ways...
To be honest, for me, it's hard to not see that the vast majority of that publication is advertising, not education.
Au contraire, Gerry. Tree stands have been used for decades, perhaps not as widely as today. And, (I have no evidence with which to back this up,) I'm sure our bowhunting ancestors used elevated positions also. Seems to be a natural inclination to get above your game.
Clay--The reason your need a side by side for hunting is to haul your ozone machine to your hunting site.
I just briefly read thru that issue of the magazine and frankly, it is almost entirely advertisements for supporting companies. Not only are the articles written to include some activity, but those activities include the use of certain ( named) product lines. Many of the articles sure make it sound like you cannot do without these products.
I for one am not in favor of that format for that sort of magazine. Business runs the world, and that, in large part ( I M O ), is the future demise of the world.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Vaughn:
Clay--The reason your need a side by side for hunting is to haul your ozone machine to your hunting site.
Oh dang, I forgot about that :smileystooges:
Great response!
Whether it is hunting with archery equipment or firearms, fair chase is being pushed to the limit. Too many people have no intention of giving game a chance. It's like coming home without an animal means they left their manhood (woman hood?) in the game fields. Most hunting magazines advertise more gadgetry than Radio Shack that will give game less and less chance of survival.
QuoteOriginally posted by bow'narrow:
Whether it is hunting with archery equipment or firearms, fair chase is being pushed to the limit. Too many people have no intention of giving game a chance. It's like coming home without an animal means they left their manhood (woman hood?) in the game fields. Most hunting magazines advertise more gadgetry than Radio Shack that will give game less and less chance of survival.
That's true and it has great implications for the length and timing of our hunting seasons, especially in the west. But the real issue with this publication is that it's being passed off as educational to impressionable young hunters in need of real guidance.
These are great responses, and I agree with all of them, even though I am young and have grown up in the instant gratification era. I feel extremely lucky to have had my grandfather as a great mentor for hunting fishing and everything outdoors related, I would go out hunting with him every fall and spend a week in the woods of Vermont and out of 10 seasons only took one doe. His mentality rubbed off on me it was more a way to get out and be closer to nature and enjoy everything it has to offer than it was about killing an animal. To me it seems like much of the market is geared towards a single end (killing an animal) and to me this doesn't feel right the whole hunting experience is more than that and if that is your only goal then I think you are missing the biggest part of why we hunt.
In your letter you referred to old bucks using thermals and air currents. I hunt old bucks in NW Iowa. Mature deer especially old does use more than that to guide their daily routines. I am so sick and tired of the program hunting techniques and how everyone, even on public land, thinks all they need to do is duplicate what they read and see on TV, that I refuse to stake out a claim on the public and private parcels that I hunt and call it my own. If I get a deer, it is on the ground.
A word about thermals and air currents. I was after a big handsome buck last year. It was impossible to set up in front of him. He followed his nose and any human scent would just move him to a different route. I ended up hanging up where I could maybe see him first and then attempt a wind in my face stalk to match the situation. Being partially disabled, I am not the graceful stalking cat that I used to be. My trophy for the year was that I got within 70 yards of him twice and he got by me twice without being spooked by my efforts. Too much stratagem takes the adventure out of the hunt, certainly some is required, but who wants to play a game when the deck is always stacked in your favor?
Most beginners would do well to forget the gimmicks and seek to be a better Indian.
Dissenting view-
I'm OK with gullible people being led astray...more deer for me! :)
We're doomed. While in Newfoundland hunting moose last October my guide was telling me of another outfitter he knew who
was experimenting with drones to help to spot moose from the air. Proably won't be to long before drones catch on as another hunting tool. We have met the enemy and he is us.
Should I use a blunt or a broadhead for a drone?
I have heard talk of someone getting one, so they can check on deer without getting out and walking to areas that they cannot drive to. Actually, I am all for restricting the use of any digital or mechanical device for detecting or harassing game on public land, as well as a rule to remove tree stands on a daily basis from all public land. We cannot leave decoys out for waterfowl, why should we be able to leave our junk in the public woods when we are not there? Normally, I do not agree with more rules, but a leave no trace rule is actually one that frees up the resource for everyone else and can help keep hunting an adventure open to more people.
QuoteOriginally posted by bow'narrow:
Whether it is hunting with archery equipment or firearms, fair chase is being pushed to the limit. Too many people have no intention of giving game a chance. It's like coming home without an animal means they left their manhood (woman hood?) in the game fields. Most hunting magazines advertise more gadgetry than Radio Shack that will give game less and less chance of survival.
That's true and it has great implications for the length and timing of our hunting seasons, especially in the west. But the real issue with this publication is that it's being passed off as educational to impressionable young hunters in need of real guidance.
Kind of off topic but I think we are going to have a real problem on our hands concerning the use of drones. My brother-in- law just got one to survey his crop fields. He was showing it too me last night and promptly ran it up to 400 feet and had a birdseye view of a huge area complete with zoom ability etc all in amazing detail. He controlled it from his iPad and the clarity of what he could see was astounding. He doesn't hunt and knows absolutely nothing about it but once he got it up there he looked at me and said "Think how easy it would be for you to find deer with one of these!" I told him I'd never in a million years and he honestly did not understand my reaction.
yup. I agree. And of course, then comes herding the deer past you or your paid hunters. No mistake, it IS gonna happen. People are people, nuff said.
ChuckC
Jon's reaction to drones is pretty much what I've heard other places. I'd like to think that it would be obvious enough to the powers that be that drones have no place in fair chase hunting that they would be outlawed. Or, alternatively, that a lot of them would have unfortunate accidents. Unfortunately, we tend to get numb to this kind of thing after a time, and then, like crossbows, they creep in. People who have a buck to make from something don't give up, they'll be right back making their pitch next week, next month, next year.
I am in the process right now of pushing those powers that be to get to work on outlawing drones for hunting and for getting automated cameras off of public hunting areas. Years ago the powers that be here didn't think I had any grounds for my complaints about tree stand misuse. It took a couple of years, but we got a tree stand law, now we need a refinement of that law as well. The only real difference between them and us is that they are more worried about getting their suits dirty.
Never thought I'd say this, but I'm glad I'm as old as I am. Can't even imagine what it will be like in 20 years. I've lived thru what I believe to be the best years. Pretty much all down hill from here !
What is worse is how the local shops have jumped on the +bow bandwagon. You don't find archery anymore. Add to that the over regulation in my state and it's a wonder I still want to hunt. How can you inspire someone to our sport when the sell in all the shops is to promote pulling the trigger instead.
Im just sitting back and getting ready for the climax of technology that hunters will accept and the epiphany that comes when they realize that it has diluted the essence of hunting. Some folks will go back to the couch and video games and some will pick up more primitive hunting tools and laugh at themselves for all of the door dads they played with in "the beginning".
There are cycles in everything and I hope the tech in hunting is peaking out. The only problem is all of the money involved in marketing the stuff.
Being open and positive instead of snobbish when you come across someone who you "feel" may be overburdened with gadgetry is the best way to combat the retardation of the essence of the hunt. You have to let people know that you can still get it done and have fun doing it with less than the industry is telling them they need.
QuoteOriginally posted by Izzy:
Im just sitting back and getting ready for the climax of technology that hunters will accept and the epiphany that comes when they realize that it has diluted the essence of hunting. Some folks will go back to the couch and video games and some will pick up more primitive hunting tools and laugh at themselves for all of the door dads they played with in "the beginning".
There are cycles in everything and I hope the tech in hunting is peaking out. The only problem is all of the money involved in marketing the stuff.
Being open and positive instead of snobbish when you come across someone who you "feel" may be overburdened with gadgetry is the best way to combat the retardation of the essence of the hunt. You have to let people know that you can still get it done and have fun doing it with less than the industry is telling them they need.
QuoteOriginally posted by Alexander Traditional:
QuoteOriginally posted by Izzy:
Im just sitting back and getting ready for the climax of technology that hunters will accept and the epiphany that comes when they realize that it has diluted the essence of hunting. Some folks will go back to the couch and video games and some will pick up more primitive hunting tools and laugh at themselves for all of the door dads they played with in "the beginning".
There are cycles in everything and I hope the tech in hunting is peaking out. The only problem is all of the money involved in marketing the stuff.
Being open and positive instead of snobbish when you come across someone who you "feel" may be overburdened with gadgetry is the best way to combat the retardation of the essence of the hunt. You have to let people know that you can still get it done and have fun doing it with less than the industry is telling them they need.
[/b]
I agree with a lot of what Izzy had to say. I know a bunch of people however that don't even know what to go back to. They have been taught to hunt with all these things,and that's all they know.
Regarding the last statement,i've always tried to be respectful when I see people doing and using things I don't agree with. I've had compound and gun guys come up to me though and say why would you use that thing? Isn't that a novelty type thing? I just wish I would have something in the back of the truck sometimes when I run into these people.
To me hunting game is not about the kill but rather the pursuit. The opportunity to be in the forest or desert and chase or rather hunt quarry that may out match me without the aid of bonoculars, sub minute of angle rifles, 300fps wheel bows, no scent, sites, range finders or God forbid a drone. I don't even feel the need to carry an camera to record my kill or even to have a taxidermist stuff my trophy. All of the pre mentioned to me, cheapens the experience and somehow is disrespectful to nature. I can't say that I would hunt lions with a speare but if I did, I am fair game and if it cost me life or limb,so be it. It is only fair. Does anyone remember the movie Predator? Well it is about what we might call a creature from another solar system that traveled to earth for the purpose as we find out,to trophy hunt humans. How we hated the creature and wanted to see Arnold kill the beast angainst all the odds as the creature had far superior intellect and weapontry but still, we considered it a beast. I don't know where I am going with this but I carry a stck bow to the field because of the challenge and because of the fact that I simply love the art and beauty of an arrow in flight. If I don't kill my quarry, it does not matter and I enjoy the experience none the less.
People will always try to do the easiest thing until they get bored with it. If there would be lots of pheasant hunting possibilities like the old days, many of these deer sitters would be doing that instead. However, exclusiveness and territorial property control has limited access for most and farming methods have destroyed the pheasant numbers, so it is either waterfowl or deer. Riding around looking for deer is easy, walking around looking for deer is hard. Deer hunting is a ride and go sit game for most. Even golf is too hard, one has to swing that heavy club and everything, not mention bending way over to pickup balls.
I seen that golf clubs have 5 hozzle adjustments, I don't know what that is, but I don't think I own anything with a hozzle.
I watched some TV, if the ads mean anything they do show where the marketing push is at, drugs, insurance and little computers with apps. The technologies already exist to hunt totally automated. Last winter I borrowed a telescope. The person that owned the $110,000 monster, lived in California, the scope was in Arizona, and I operated it with my computer here in Iowa. If I can do all the complicated things that it takes to view planetary nebulae remotely, the technology required to have a cross bow shoot at a deer is simple in comparison.
How much would hozzle adjustments and apps raise the price of my new longbow. I need one of those 'bow shoots itself' apps, automated hozzle adjustments for wind-age, digitally programmed cameras to tell my apps where to shoot, and a bigassed drone to carry it for me and maybe another drone to watch my bow while it hunts for me, while I view it all from the comforts of my car. Oooh, this is going to be fun.
Our response to issues is so important to our well being. The best thing we can do to promote our sport is by actions not words. We must be true to what we do, abide by the laws of the land and help show other people the right way to enjoy the things we love. Everything I have seen you do Clay is top notch and keep up the good work.
you know what will kill hunting, civilization will and I say that based on here and what I see.
the houses and buildings going up, the once accessible property's we could hunt are now private with new houses, places my father hunting when he was a kid are all gone.
so they put aside management areas where we all get crowded into and then fight amongst ourselves.
a lot of you live in very remote areas and you may not see it in your lifetime but if the building doesn't slow down then a 30-50 unit townhouse complex may be coming to your kids or grandkids,, just close enough to shake things up a little and bring in some dog walkers, young paintball players, dirt bikers, animal lovers and tree huggers, geo cache gangs, and so on.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tajue17:
you know what will kill hunting, civilization will and I say that based on here and what I see.
the houses and buildings going up, the once accessible property's we could hunt are now private with new houses, places my father hunting when he was a kid are all gone.
so they put aside management areas where we all get crowded into and then fight amongst ourselves.
a lot of you live in very remote areas and you may not see it in your lifetime but if the building doesn't slow down then a 30-50 unit townhouse complex may be coming to your kids or grandkids,, just close enough to shake things up a little and bring in some dog walkers, young paintball players, dirt bikers, animal lovers and tree huggers, geo cache gangs, and so on.
So true. Even in the west it's increasingly hard to get away from people. They call it progress unfortunately.
One of the state areas we hunt has a one hundred year plan. It will go like another area except more commercial. First the state acquires the land with funds for public hunting. Then if it goes like other public hunting land, it gets multiple use classifications and a dam. In Iowa a small reservoir is a puke green/brown pond, but every filthy pond gets a massive campground that can keep people with fifth wheel campers and sleeping buses happy. The blue sky that contractors paint over the bids to install camping slots and blacktop roads in campgrounds is incredible. One of the hardest things to do in Iowa with all of these advances in camping technologies is to find a place to set a wall tent and go hunting from ones tent. Once those water lines get drained for the year camping is finished and the campgrounds are closed. The nature conservancy group does buy up unique natural land when they can, but in time that gets turned over to the state. Often it is not good for hunting, but it has natural features that makes it attractive to the conservancy folks to warrant saving.
When I say no gun hunting on my property, it is not fair to gun hunters. When I say no tree stands, the tree people get offended, same for carbon arrows and compounds, almost like all of these groups of choices are each a different species. I am all for putting challenge and adventure back into hunting by mandating restrictions to methods and equipment.
@ Producer, yeah the Predator had Arnie out matched in nearly every aspect, but in the end it came down to he wanted a fair game pursuit as well. Remember he removed all his gadgets and stuff except his wrist blade.
The minimalist nature and challenge of trad bow hunting is what drew me to it. I used to take a bunch of crap with me every time, game cameras, all the best accessories on my fast compound bow, and I found it very unsatisfying. Even using tree stands seems way too easy. I let quite a few deer pass because it just didn't seem fair. Sitting in a tree stand long enough till something passes doesn't take that much skill, lol. Let's face it, the vast majority of us are not relying on bringing home meat to survive, so why not make it a gratifying experience and not about bragging rights? While I would say I am more of a meat hunter first and trophy hunter second, I do not HAVE to make a kill to make it enjoyable.
Guys like the dentist who killed Cecil the Lion are helping to kill hunting!!
we don't know what actually happened there.
ChuckC
Clay, thanks for penning a great letter. Sadly, "sport hunting" has evolved into the big business arena. The mantra: "More hunters buying more gadgets means more PR dollars for financially struggling wildlife management agencies."
The day I saw my first Ozonics add is the day I turned off all the hunting shows. I frankly hope folks drop out of what it has become and go back to the city. Too many folks in the woods as it is. Maybe then all the gadget companies will go belly up and we get back to the basics. Prolly a pipe dream tho.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Guys like the dentist who killed Cecil the Lion are helping to kill hunting!!
Geez, isn't that the truth! A story like that just results in a big bump in contributions to anti hunting groups. The thing that bothers me the most is that the media is calling him a hunter. :(
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Guys like the dentist who killed Cecil the Lion are helping to kill hunting!!
Geez, isn't that the truth! A story like that just results in a big bump in contributions to anti hunting groups. The thing that bothers me the most is that the media is calling him a hunter. :(
I just had a guy on a local forum ask why I don't use a range finder.......for every shot. At this point, it's hopeless. I specifically asked him "Who told you that you had to use a range finder?" I'm still waiting on a response.
The more advanced we become as hunters using tech. such as drones, thermal imaging, and the likes the less chance the animal has,the more advanced and easier, usually means more hunters, what happens to the magnifficent creatures we hunt,extermination.Its hard enough managing wildlife ethically as it is.
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
we don't know what actually happened there.
ChuckC
Chuck not to be argumentative but I think we all are very sure of exactly what happened since there's no such thing as free range lion hunting hardly at all anymore its all put and take its a setup pure and simple pay money shoot the lion take your picture get it mounted go home and brag
That guy in no way form or fashion actually hunted and I say again hunted that lion
Well said Terry...
I read that the leader of that country has a taste for young elephant meat and allows certain unscrupulous things to happen for a price. That is not hunting, when money can undo any challenge or adventure.
I'm with you Terry! There was no hunting taking place there. Dentist is a crappy shot too!
Terry, you aren't being argumentative, just discussing.
Did he know all of what was happening ? Maybe he did. Maybe not.
If you were sold a line of bull and got stuck holding the stolen loot, just exactly what part did you play ?
Many of our guided set ups are not "hunting" as we here tend to see it.
I was referring, however, to the real lack of knowledge out there. He shot it with a crossbow / he shot it with a bow / it went for 40 hours / it went for 48 hours. He lives in Wisconsin, he lives in Minnesota. He lied about a bear, he probably lied to his mother when he was young.
It not OK to "lure" him across the line of the refuge, but it is totally ok to shoot a moose, or bison, or elk that crosses out of Yellowstone onto a private property ?
I just don't know enough to totally pass judgement, except, that ain't my idea of hunting, or fun, or , or , or.
Male lions, according to the internet, tend to live up to about 14 years old in the wild. They fight. I am certain that when he lost his final fight ( he was 13 remember), he would have been clawed and bitten and ousted from his tribe, but probably not killed outright. He would have developed infections, starved, died days or weeks later.
Is there a possibility that this was known, the lion was sold before this time because he is worthless as a dead former pack leader but worth 55 grand (or 50, whatever it really was) alive.
This seems to be the way with elephants and rhinos lately.
For all we know, the Game Commissioner was also in on it, but it went down poorly. Point is, we don't know yet.
BTW, one of the posts on-line said he could " pin a playing card at 100 yards" with his bow. Stuff happens when you are excited.
ChuckC
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
Terry, you aren't being argumentative, just discussing.
Did he know all of what was happening ? Maybe he did. Maybe not.
If you were sold a line of bull and got stuck holding the stolen loot, just exactly what part did you play ?
Many of our guided set ups are not "hunting" as we here tend to see it.
I was referring, however, to the real lack of knowledge out there. He shot it with a crossbow / he shot it with a bow / it went for 40 hours / it went for 48 hours. He lives in Wisconsin, he lives in Minnesota. He lied about a bear, he probably lied to his mother when he was young.
It not OK to "lure" him across the line of the refuge, but it is totally ok to shoot a moose, or bison, or elk that crosses out of Yellowstone onto a private property ?
I just don't know enough to totally pass judgement, except, that ain't my idea of hunting, or fun, or , or , or.
Male lions, according to the internet, tend to live up to about 14 years old in the wild. They fight. I am certain that when he lost his final fight ( he was 13 remember), he would have been clawed and bitten and ousted from his tribe, but probably not killed outright. He would have developed infections, starved, died days or weeks later.
Is there a possibility that this was known, the lion was sold before this time because he is worthless as a dead former pack leader but worth 55 grand (or 50, whatever it really was) alive.
This seems to be the way with elephants and rhinos lately.
For all we know, the Game Commissioner was also in on it, but it went down poorly. Point is, we don't know yet.
BTW, one of the posts on-line said he could " pin a playing card at 100 yards" with his bow. Stuff happens when you are excited.
ChuckC
The more I hear of this story (too much) the more I agree with your statements. No one really knows for sure and when its spun by the media who make money off of telling salacious tales, the more they make this salacious.
Believe what you want but before you condemn this dude (lion killer) be sure you swear off killing that Booner buck when he walks under your tree stand because he was photographed on a preserve by a bird watcher over the summer and made it to the front page of your home town paper and now has a name like say "Cecil The Whitetail". :wavey:
Believe what you want but before you condemn this dude (lion killer) be sure you swear off killing that Booner buck when he walks under your tree stand because he was photographed on a preserve by a bird watcher over the summer and made it to the front page of your home town paper and now has a name like say "Cecil The Whitetail". [wavey]
That is quite a stretch Izzy...
You split the arrow!
QuoteOriginally posted by Stickbow:
Believe what you want but before you condemn this dude (lion killer) be sure you swear off killing that Booner buck when he walks under your tree stand because he was photographed on a preserve by a bird watcher over the summer and made it to the front page of your home town paper and now has a name like say "Cecil The Whitetail". [wavey]
That is quite a stretch Izzy...
Not really, It happened with a local elk out west a season or two ago.
As far as technology, I can't believe no one has mentioned the "hex suit"...
Truth is that each of us has some gimmick that we have bought into. I bet the list would be pretty fun to look at for this crowd of trad hunters on this thread. We are humans so we contradict not just each other, but ourselves.
By the way, there is a growing trend of DNR, Game and Fish, and other state agencies making the use of drones while hunting an illegal act.
A guy sitting in a tree stand that happens to shoot a deer that is, unbeknownst to the hunter, "Famous". Opposed to someone who pays tens of thousands of dollars to hunt a species that they know is put and take so to speak, and it goes bad?
Maybe it is just me but there is a difference in culpability in the two scenarios.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Guys like the dentist who killed Cecil the Lion are helping to kill hunting!!
I just wish everyone would quit bringing up that he's a dentist. Doesn't matter really how he makes a living. And we're not all like that. ;-)
Everybody knows that dentists kill more lions per capita than any other occupation, Jeff! :D
All joking aside, before you let your emotions get the best of you, all hunters should take a long hard look at any of the issues being exploited on the television and internet news outlets recently.
Of course not all actions involving killing of animals are legal or supportable by anyone with common sense. THE issue is starting to take an eerie turn with people calling hunting an "ELITIST SPORT" for wealthy, white Americans and Euro Trash. Whats money got to do with it. What business is it of how a person spends the money they work hard to earn (excluding Dentist :smileystooges: ) sorry Jeff? And why does race matter as far as trophy hunting goes or for anything?
You know those people who tell you what you "Must" to teach your children and what you "must" believe? The folks who say you are a "Hater" if you don't support their social agenda. They're the ones ranting about the evils of sport hunting at the current time. I guess they're the same people who have always been behind anti hunting campaigns.
These lions are the golden egg to catch the general, non hunting publics ear and the ear of hunters who don't travel to Africa or anyplace else away from their homes to kill animals that they don't have at home.
Sorry if I sound like a crotchety, old hater but I guess some may see me that way. Thats their right to believe that and I won't tell them what they "Must" believe.
Not that you aren't all well informed gentlemen and women that are free to have your own opinions, Im just begging hunters and their supporters to be careful what you take from the media.
Never Killed A Lion, Izzy
The media has handled this, and, frankly every other similar situation of the last maybe ten years quite poorly, And, I believe, purposefully so.
There was and still is a ton of misinformation, the latest being their jumping on the bandwagon of that second lion friend ( the second most beloved lion ?) having been shot, then, oops, it wasn't after all. Absolutely no proof at all in their statement, but they sure jam it out there.
Same happened with that Colorado moose last year.
ChuckC
I think Yellowstone should have traditional archery seasons, it is becoming a petting zoo. The one world elitist would have a hayday stirring up the sheep over it. But really Yellowstone needs to have traditional archery hunting seasons. I touched a deer, an elk, I could have touched a big buffalo, but at the last minute, I decided that I was about to get my butt kicked so I backed off. Those bears that come to the dumpsters, are not bears, they are garbage whores. Yellowstone needs to have a hunting season. It will never happen, it would create more trouble than it would be worth. Things are all backwards these days. A doctor exposes the planned parent hoods for selling baby body parts, he becomes an enemy to society and gets a judgement against him to force him to stop exposing them, but the news media jumps all over things that have no bearing on day to day life and survival in our once free country.
Unfortunately, people who never see any wildlife believe that what they see in Yellowstone is "real".