Hey guys, I have a short draw (27") and about all I can get out of either one of my bows is in the 160's and I am reluctant to hunt with them. This is with a front loaded .500 spine Beman arrow 29". I can shoot these combos accurately but I am concerned about the wimpy performance. One is a Warfed Proline and the other is a longbow. I have a black bear hunt this fall and was planning on using one of these but I am a little reluctant and might just go ahead and use my compound.
Sharp two blade and that set up = dead bear and deer.
agree super sharp 2 bld. good to go..Ive killed a couple huge does back a few yrs ago with the big Simmons Treeshark heads pulling 47# and if I remember right the arrow weighed around 600 gr. and was doing a whopping 149 fps, blew thru both of them like butter leaving 3 in. wide entrances and as big or bigger exit wounds, blood trail was like slinging a bucket around.
Also I shot a 210# buck with the same 47# bow shooting a 485 gr. or so 2114 with a 100 gr. Stinger 4 bld. Buzzcut at 23 yds and it blew right thru him, he made it less then 20 yds and ran head first into a tree and died.
I shoot 52# at 27in and my arrow is 30in beeman 400 at 510gr. I use a 200 gr vpa 3 blade. I shot completely through a large bodied buck this last fall at 25yds and my arrow hit the ground on the other side with enough force to slightly curl the tip on my broadhead. You should have plenty of power to cleanly kill bear or deer. Shot placement and a well tuned arrow with sharp broadhead will get it done.
I wouldn't personally. But, that being said, with a sharp 2 blade BH put in the right spot you're good to go at those specs. I say go for it and post a pic of your kill when you return
Good sharp two blade head and you'll do just fine, I'd say you'll get two holes on deer ...no experience with bears
Thanks for the input guys but I am going to just shoot stickbows for fun and if I hunt I will use other means.
Whats wrong with a sharp 3 blade it will penetrate just as good or better in my testing. Widow
I generally prefer heavier bows but readily agree they are not necessary. I believe your rig is adequate. Sharp heads and shot placement are your only concerns. Just my thoughts, and I readily admit that I have no experience with bears. By the way, I have a 78# longbow that generates speeds in the 150's so 160's out of your bow sounds good to me. Speed, while a good thing, is not the whole story.
QuoteOriginally posted by Scott E:
Sharp two blade and that set up = dead bear and deer.
This^^^^^^
There are a gazillion bows out there shooting in the 160's, and they successfully kill stuff all the time. Get em close. Havr razor sharp broadheads, and put them in the right place!
Bisch
QuoteOriginally posted by cedar swampman:
Hey guys, I have a short draw (27") and about all I can get out of either one of my bows is in the 160's and I am reluctant to hunt with them. This is with a front loaded .500 spine Beman arrow 29". I can shoot these combos accurately but I am concerned about the wimpy performance. One is a Warfed Proline and the other is a longbow. I have a black bear hunt this fall and was planning on using one of these but I am a little reluctant and might just go ahead and use my compound.
And your question is? If it is about your perceived "wimpy performance" being able to kill a black bear, then you need to get over that notion.
Where do you get the idea that 460 grains at 160 fps is wimpy? I'm a proponent for more is better, but you've been listening to too many armchair quarterbacks. That's great plenty to kill a bear. People have been killing critters with a lot less for a long time.
the first deer i killed with a trad bow was with a bear recurve around 46# with a 28/29" POC shaft and a small zwickey BH. dont know how fast / slow it was or how much it weighed but it killed that deer within 20 yds.
the speed is not as important as shot placement and a sharp BH.
i would not hesitate to hunt with your set up.
I would think there are more setups in the wood that don't match those numbers than do. Go hunt and enjoy
I'm 487 at 175 (according to Stu's calculator - never chronographed - don't care). Your setup is not different enough that I would be bothered at all.
Back before chronos were common, we had no idea what speed we got, nor did we much care. Bowhunting has become much too technical to my mind. We let some number get in our head and mess with us. You will be fine with that set-up.
I have no idea what my speed is but I have killed several deer and hogs with a 475 grain arrow from a 42@28 bow. All broadside shots have been pass thru's using Magnus 4 blade and VPA 2 blade. I have killed a few bears with the bow and they are not a tuff critter to kill.
Heck those are pretty good selfbow numbers and a lot of deer and bear have been taken with them. I killed a number of elk with selfbows shooting speeds in the 160s.
Mike
I would not hesitate one moment. Shot placement and a well tuned arrow and blah blah will get it done.
Yes
Go Get 'Em- No problem with what you are shooting. Accuracy and a Scary Sharp Broadhead Will Do What You Want It To. Denny
Ditto what these guys said just do it man. You'll be fine if you put your arrow in the boiler room.
He already stated that he was a trad shooter, but not a trad hunter and is going to use 'other means'. It is encouraging to see the positive objective feedback, new people can get pushed into unsuitable equipment by heavy bow advocates.
No prob. Speed isn't everything.
I have an example from my early trad hunting days...Had a doe come into my set at about 10 yds. She was quartered away from me and I was shooting a 57# recurve with a 450 grain aluminum and 2 blade Zwickey Diamond (scary sharp). It was so still I could hear my heart beating so in lieu of coming to full draw, I only half drew the bow (about 26-30#), taking her at the left side back rib and it exited in front of her right shoulder. Not a complete pass-thru but only about 6" of the arrow remained inside. She only ran about 50 yds.
Hope that answers your concerns.
yes I would hunt with it and not think twice about it
First trad kill was a 6pt. with a Ben Pearson Mach1 40#, GT 3555 weighing 450gr. grains. Second kill was 9pt. with a 43# Bear Alaskan same arrow plus 50gr insert. I think you are good. Put them in the boiler room. Good luck.
Close to my set up and experience has proven good sharp two blades and good placement equal good results.
I wouldn't think twice about hunting with it!
Your fine with that setup on deer, keep shots close and use a sharp broadhead and shot placement is the key.
How far do you want the arrow to go after it goes out the other side. That set up is just fine.
Why not.
I think I have come to the realization that my body is shrinking(draw especially) and even when using expansion and such I have a pretty short power stroke. Speed is only one component but it is the only thing that drives an arrow through an animal(of course a well placed shot).Thanks for all the input.
This morning I went and relaxed into my shot and am in the 150's and both my bows seem like toys(the penetration on my targets is minimal) so hunting with them is out in my book. I'll just shoot them for fun and leave the hunting with stickbows to you experienced folks.
Thumper Dunker, thats awsome Lmao!!!!
That was the norm in the 60s and 70s. We didn't even know arrow speed was something to measure or how to measure it.
Confidence is a major factor, obviously you do not have confidence in your setup, though everyone here has said its fine, and it is. Much larger game has been brought down with less. Try hunting smaller game first untill you realize the capability of your gear.
Cedar - I am 5'3" that is all God gave me. I pull 25" on a good day in a T-shirt so likely 23/24" in a hunting situation. I am shooting a 45@25 recurve currently w roughly 450g arrows with WW 3 blade broadheads on the business end. I am shooting deer here in Michigan just as you would be as well as bear here and in Canada. I can send you as many photos as you like of very dead things taken with that gear or less in regards to power stroke, Lbs. and speed. Hell, I feel 160fps is fast!!
As someone else mentioned - most often my arrows are in the dirt on the other side with both deer and bear. if not they hit the opposite shoulder and just as dead.
By the way Cedar, what kind of draw weight are you shooting?
Guys, I have been shooting a bow since I was 8 yrs old (I am 58 now) and have drilled a fair share of squirrels, rabbits and frogs as a kid. I have bee to Rick Welch's school as well as Bob Wesley's-I got a pretty good handle on shooting when my form is on. I hunt with modern gear and can take any game in North America so going back to sticks(especially the ones I presently own)is quite humbling as they perform only 10 fps than my old Wing and Bear bows from the 70's.I guess I don't have confidence in my equipment-like I said penetration on my targets with a broadhead is pretty lame.
Your foam target is not a critter. Your comparison of penetration is completely flawed.
With field points or broadhead, it doesn't matter. Comparing penetration on foam is a non-valid comparison as different law of physics apply between foam (solid) and visco-elastic fluids (critters) . The same wrong comparison will give you the impression that a faster and lighter arrow will outpenetrate the slower and heavier arrow using the same broadhead.
What bow are you shooting now?
I would feel confident to hunt a bear with my 50# Wing recurve and an aluminum or wood arrow of around 480 grains, even though I only draw around 25". And I bet I get around 160fps out of that combo. Normally I use heavier bows, but that doesn't mean it is not an adequate combo.
Compare kinetic momentums and not kinetic energy and your combo will look quite good.
A lot of people think that traditional bows are not able to kill things, until they see the proof themselves.
All I can tell you is I can drive a 453 grn FMJ through targets and into a broadhead target that it is nearly impossible to get out so that is my comparison ( with modern gear). When an arrow goes into a bag target and nearly falls out I would call that poor-it isn't going to magically going to pick up steam and blow through an animal.
I am shooting a Warfed Proline with some Hoyt limbs drawing in the 40's and a Bigfoot Flatliner probably mid to low 40's at my draw. I tried Beman ICS .500 hunters 29" long with 100grn insert with 125 grn head and Easton Legacy 1916's 29" with 125 grn head. In reality I am only drawing 26" and need more poundage to get any performance.
I want to make it clear my comments were not meant to disparage Kirks bows-I just got one mismatched for me(by my own wrong draw measurement). He is a craftsman and has tried to help me a lot. Moderators can delete this thread if they choose. Thanks to all for the advise.
Cedar, question bud but what type of broad head are you shooting into your target to compare it to your other gear? Secondly, are you able to handle more poundage and still be accurate? You could always trade a bow on classifieds to go up in poundage (if you can maintain accuracy) and work on a heavier arrow.
The rest of the gang knows your equipment will work from prior experience but if you lack the confidence currently that could make for a bad situation! Good luck, Mike
I am retiring my trad gear and moving on. Adds too much stress in my life that I don't want or need. You guys enjoy and I enjoyed the forum. Later
I guess you have made up your mind already. But check out Little Big Man's 400 lb black bear. He shot it with a 43 lb bow, and shot through it. The story is in the highlights from 2013 or so, entitled "Manitoba Beast".
Check out Pete Ward's review of the 46" 41# Stalker recurve. Even considering it's draw weight this bow is pretty low performance with only 159 fps @ 8.6 gpp. But it brought down a moose.
Cedar: Not everyone is cut out to shoot a stick bow, and I'm not a missionary. Good luck in your future endeavors.
I find it interesting that a thread that started with a predetermined conclusion could garner so much support. I was going to post how many deer I shot with bows that were light poundage to heavy poundage with penetration included, but on rereading the original post, I realized I would only be preaching to the choir. For those who don't know, it is fun to shoot light bows that zip out a lighter arrow and it makes it difficult to justify that shoulder ripping 90 pounder while you are dragging out your wife's deer that was shot with a 40 pounder. If that would have happened once, I could have passed it off as luck, but after all of these years and an increasing number of tags filled every year, I had to admit that I was working my butt off for nothing. Saxton Pope stated that it seemed that quick clean and accurate arrow flight was better than raw power. Numbers debates rarely have all that much to do with real hunting.
After reading the entire thread, like Pavan above, I debated even posting. But for others with a similar question, who might read this thread; it would do your conscience good to view this link.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=112539#000000
Also, this is a pic of a page out of the Tradional Bowyer's Bible Vol. 1
(http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t608/Pheonixarcher/FCB30C6E-D97B-4E1D-B5B7-E9B32C9B5BFF_zpszrzc2u3f.jpg) (http://s1316.photobucket.com/user/Pheonixarcher/media/FCB30C6E-D97B-4E1D-B5B7-E9B32C9B5BFF_zpszrzc2u3f.jpg.html)
I hope that you can enlarge it enough to read it.
If you run Howard's numbers (450g@145fps=21.01 KE)
Your set up at 458g@160fps=26.04 KE. Just saying.
And remember, people have been killing things for thousands of years with much less than what we shoot today! Even most self bows now out perform those of a hundred years ago because of the knowledge that is now available to the bowyer.
I want to thanks all the input from you guys and want to reassure everyone I still love trad and will be hunting with confidence with my new Flatliner. After a long correspondence with Kirk I am on my way to tuning some arrows to perfection and getting ready. I have to eat some humble pie as I was having a couple of bad days not pertaining to archery that got me a little testy. I know this setup will kill deer all day long as I used less in the past to do so. I am not going anywhere and really enjoyed looking at all the 40 lb kills!!! Thanks again!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :archer:
54@24 here. shot a 500 grain cedar arrow though an elk a few years ago not to mention dozens of deer. Penetration in foam is as you say minimal. Barring hitting a shoulder blade, I'll have entry and exit wounds on deer if not a full stick in the ground pass thru. Worry more about shot placement.