I need your HELP -
Predator Recurve - 54#
I have been shooting carbon express heritage 250's, stock inserts with a 125gr field point. 3 fletch 5.5 inch LW shield cut. They shoot pretty good. not great but pie plate good out to 30 yards when im on my game.
I picked up some 350's, with 50gr brass inserts and 145gr field points. These arrows are quad fletched with 4". They fly amazing. Only tested to 20 yards but they were quiet and seemed to hit hard where I was looking.
The charts say I should shoot the 250's BUT:
Do you think the 350's shooting better due to:
1. Spine
2. Heavier insert
3. Heavier head
4. Quad fletched.
Thanks guys and gals.
Have you shot any of these bare shaft?
Never done a bare shaft test, the 350's came fletched and made up.
Heavier head and brass insert will effectively weaken the spine on the 350's. The bow you shoot is also a very fast bow and shoots faster than most 60 lb. bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by jon boy:
Heavier head and brass insert will effectively weaken the spine on the 350's. The bow you shoot is also a very fast bow and shoots faster than most 60 lb. bows.
What does translate to?
Sorry, I have always been a guy that shoots at the pie plate, hunts 15 yards and hits the woods. I am looking to expand my knowledge and effectiveness now.
What is your draw length? I shoot 53lbs@26 CEH 250's with 275 grains up front. If you shoot the CEH 350 your going to need a lot more tip weight. Scrape the fletchings off one 250 and one 350 and see how they fly. 350's are going to be too stiff
The 250 are 28.5 inches
The 350 are 30.5 inches
Well, everyone has an opinion, but I've found that there are some bows that just seem to like an arrow that the charts(and other guys) say won't work!
I've used a lot of CEs and I'd say you're in between the 150 and 250. But, they're right- a bare shaft test will tell you a lot. But, you need to start with a long arrow of each spine and cut them down as necessary. BTW, 4 fletches at 90 degrees do nothing for you, IMO. And 195 grains isn't enough to weaken a 350 shaft to fit your needs.
Then again, your own posts say a lot. You're on a pie plate at 20 yards, you typically don't shoot past 15, and the fletched 350s fly "amazing" and are quiet. Hey, you could do a lot worse!
Thats why I say it rocked my world.
My wife shoots the 150's and I know those are no good for me. They are all over the place.
I guess I need to do some research on bare shaft tuning. Never tried it and not sure where to start other than google.
Anyone have a guide they trust to get me started?
I just watched this. Makes sense to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Ff9n9UV3s
http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html
Very good bare shaft tuning guide
High FOC is the way to go and probably what you're finding out for yourself.
I'm shooting 340s off a 51 bow and they fly amazing. Let the bow tell you what it needs and not the Internet experts.
QuoteOriginally posted by MagicBH:
I just watched this. Makes sense to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Ff9n9UV3s
This is a very good video. It really is just that simple. True it is that a large feather will straighten an arrow in flight, but it is just like throwing an anchor out and and it slows the arrow down robbing the shaft of energy and increasing trajectory if the arrow isn't tuned for the bow.
Four four inch feathers will not make all that much drag, if all you are seeing is feathers spinning around the nock, there is nothing to fix. Predators are fast powerful bows and if the arrow stabilizes quickly coming out of the bow, there is less chance of clipping a twig when shooting at game.
WHAT A DIFFERENCE BARE SHAFT TUNING MADE!
Here is what I found:
150 - Too Weak
250 - To Stiff (where I had them previously cut)
350 - Way to stiff
So What I need to do now is swing by the archery shop and get some full length 250s and start there.
This does go to show how much fletching does help. I never thought I had an issue before and clearly I did. The fletching was working hard in order to put my arrows where I was looking.
Thanks a ton everyone.
Great to hear your on track now, I bet your number and severity of fliers will reduce once tuned.
You are shooting very light points by most but not all trad shooters standards, it is possible you could get the 250's you have to spine with heavier tips. We shoot nothing less than 200gr up front on our arrows. Distances your shooting, a super heavy weight tip up front is negligible on trajectory, now start shooting some longer range 3d courses and trajectory starts mattering more.
Great thinking Old_goat2,
I quad fletched the same 250's tonight and will test in the morning how they fly with 145 gr head.
I am going to order some 100 gr inserts for them before I head out and buy new shafts. I am thinking the combo of the inserts and heavier points might weaken the spine just right.
Try to save a little bit of money.
ps - Special thanks to the Trad gang community for all the help.
I have some full length v force shafts spined 75-90 and with 450grains up front they fly like darts bare shaft even with b/heads. This from a quick 54lb longbow.Same setup about 2 inches shorter shoot same from the same design bow but 64lb so if you play with point weight you can get almost any shaft to fly nice.
Cheers KIM
If you cannot go up in point weight enough to make the 250's work, try a longer arrow and try again.
QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
If you cannot go up in point weight enough to make the 250's work, try a longer arrow and try again.
That is the plan.
QuoteOriginally posted by MagicBH:
I just watched this. Makes sense to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Ff9n9UV3s
This video really simplifies the process.... But... i believe you want to keep those shafts just a wee bit on the weak side while bare shaft tuning because the added weight of the feathers in the rear will stiffen things up a bit...... If you are going to use wraps on your arrows, you should put those on before bare shafting.....
Once you cut a shaft too short, you can't add it back on. The only thing you can do then is thin down the strike plate and add a lot of tip weight.
If they are still a bit weak after fletching, its much easier to shim your strike plate out a fuzz rather than going back to the saw.
Another thing that a lot of guys overlook while bare shaft tuning is watching the arrow flight and paying attention to point of impact left to right, and focus too much on how the arrows are sticking out of the target.... if you bare shaft at different distances say 10 15 & 20 yards or more you can watch the arrow flight and see how spine effects the point of impact a lot better.
Some guys will even take a fletched shaft and cut the feathers off leaving the quill glued to the shaft while bare shaft tuning to get the right tail weight established......
You can make this process as simple or as complicated as you wish. But the biggest thing to remember is that on carbon shafts the length difference has much more effect on the arrow spine than just adding tip weight. Once an arrow has been bare shaft tuned correctly, you'll find you can change the tip weight by quite a bit with no effect on arrow spine or good arrow flight at all.
People forget that the extent the riser is cut past center shot has a major impact on what spine arrow shaft will fly best. Not all bows have the same degree of center shot.
QuoteOriginally posted by JohnV:
People forget that the extent the riser is cut past center shot has a major impact on what spine arrow shaft will fly best. Not all bows have the same degree of center shot.
And they also forget how much draw length changes the equation!!!!! What works for a guy at 28" of draw on a given weight will be way way weak for me at 31" at the same given weight!!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
QuoteOriginally posted by JohnV:
People forget that the extent the riser is cut past center shot has a major impact on what spine arrow shaft will fly best. Not all bows have the same degree of center shot.
And they also forget how much draw length changes the equation!!!!! What works for a guy at 28" of draw on a given weight will be way way weak for me at 31" at the same given weight!!!! [/b]
Excellent points... both of them... :thumbsup:
UPDATE
I put the 50 gr inserts in the 250's with a 145 gr head. They spine out just a bit too stiff but WAY better.
I have 100 gr inserts arriving tomorrow from 3 rivers. I have a feeling this might make me right on the money or just a tad weak.
Yay for not having to buy new arrows. Might have some 350's for sale though.
Final Update:
Added the 100 grain inserts to the 250's and with the 145gr head they bare shaft straight. I know a little bit weak would be better but after swapping out the stock inserts for the 100 grains on my quad fletch they fly like darts.
Even better than the 350's flew last week.
Amazing.
Lesson to be learned: BARE SHAFT TUNE YOUR ARROWS
Great, a good tune with high foc flies very well and penetrates. Have fun watching your groups shrink.