I have a HH Legend Stick 50#@27. I shoot GT 1535 28" long with 225gr up front.
I notice that the arrows are contacting the back edge of the side plate. I thought maybe over spine but they bare shaft great. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?
(http://i.imgur.com/KRSXSf7l.jpg)
I don't see how a 1535 with 225 up front could be over-spined. I shoot 3555s with 175 up front out of my Hills at that draw weight.
I don't think they. I am just trying to find out if this is something normal or what.
If they are under spine would it do this?
Definitely not overspined. I suspect your brace height is rather low. There will always be some wear on the side plate, but it is a bit toward the rear ion your bow. Could be how the window is cut, but Craig is pretty consistent about the way he cuts them.
If your brace height is lower than 6 1/4 inches, raise it to at least 6 1/4 or 6 1/2. I know a lot of folks shoot Hills at a lower brace height, but I shoot mine at 6 3/4 inches.
If you can watch the Hill short 'Points On Arrows', when the camera is behind him, you can see, especially in slow speed, that the arrows bend into the bow at release, then around the riser. I think what you are seeing is that initial shove of the arrow. I am wondering why there is no further contact, but that could be because the arrow is sufficiently bent that it is completely clearing the shelf, or acting so stiff that it is not bending back around the bow and shoving on that line until it clears the string and the riser. I would bet that a 50 pound cedar shaft would have a more even contact.
Underspined is a definite possibility. Try a lighter point and see if your problem goes away.
Mike
I'd say your brace height is low, too.
I would say at those specs your arrow is grossly under-spined and the release is slamming the back part of the shaft into your side plate. Any undue wear on your feathers? I mean dont get me wrong, if theyre flying good for you kudos, but a 1535 with 200+ upfront on a 50# bow (even accounting for the liklihood that your draw is shorter in a hill bow) that thing has to be a wet noodle coming out of there.
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffg:
If they are under spine would it do this?
You bet they will.... I think that's your problem. If you bare shaft those at 20 yards and watch the arrow fly i think you'll see a lot of tail left going on, and most likely a lot of tail wagging too..... I think you need to come up to 500 spine or 3555's.....
On my high performance long bows most guys shoot 5575's out of their 50# bows, and the EFOC guys have to jump up to 340's..... My static tip RC will fold up a 500 spine arrow at 47#'s like a noodle....... But we are are probably talking about 30-35 FPS difference in arrow speed.
With that much point weight 3555s is what you want Jeff. Theyre tellin it true.
Im using Axis trad .500s with my Shelton
I've experienced the same thing on some of my Hills the latest is a 66" W.S. 52@27 the other was a 68" Tembo 48# @28. I have 2 other Wesleys 50 @28 and 55 @28 where the contact is more centered. On all but the Tembo I use 3555 29bop with 200 or 250 up front and my feathers can get ragged but they are 5-1/2's. Arrow flight is flawless but the rearward wear on the side plate bothers me.
I have to try a stiffer spine.
58Winters: have you tried turning the cockfeather in? I have to do that for my wesley special. Theres a long-winded technical reason for it, but I don't care, really. With it turned in arrow flight is flawless and it stopped all wear on both the feathers and the plate.
I just got a Hill Legend Stick and have the same wear pattern starting and the arrows I am using are a tad stiff. I am not worried about it at this point. It just seems to be the way the shelf was cut into the bow. The bow shoots as well as any Hill I have worked with.
Maybe it is the character of this model. They are cut pretty far from center.
The further the arrow gets from center, the more the bow will like slower recovering arrows. My bows that are a bit heavier, 56@27, but with a 1/2" shorter draw than yours, like 1918s with 160 grain broadheads with glue-in inserts and 55 pound woodies with 160 grain heads, all cut to 27" bop. I would bet that my arrow shelves are cut deeper than yours, 1/8" to 3/16" plus the leather. I always set my brace at the recommended height and get the arrow to do the rest. I have been phasing out my aluminum arrows with the intention of going to all Surewoods and someone drops off another bundle of autumn orange 1918s for me. I don't recall what string you are using, it can make a five pound spine difference.
I am using a Ten Ring String Rhino FF.
It appears to be cut 1/4" from center with me measuring. The bow does come in lighter than marked 47# instead of 50#@27.
I have tried some 45-50 Surewoods they fly right, to stiff (Left hand shooter). So I picked up some 40-45 the other day to try.
Of course, arrow spine is the most likely culprit. But, a too low brace height will also cause the arrow to strike the riser. What do you have your brace height set at?
6 1/2"
If this is a 66" that should be more than enough. If those Surewoods were 28" or so and had 145 or 160 grain points, they should have been about right on. Everyone has their own release, what I try to NOT do is lose draw length on the release. The arrow does not take off until the string leaves the finger tips. Even Howard Hill, when watching in slow mo speed, at times loses some draw in his release as the fingers come forward. I am assuming you cant the bow, shoot split and have the bow deep enough in your hand so the bow lined up to the base of your thumb and not twisting. A Hill longbow may appear to shoot wide to the shelf side compared to a center shot bow and still have proper arrow flight. When I have been shooting my recurve and my eye gets used to that center shot, my first draw with a longbow throws me a bit, seeing that arrow angled off to side more. I quickly adjust to it by intentionally using split image aiming. If a wood arrow is too stiff it will fly loggy when fletched. I am never sure what to say when when an arrow is said to fly to the right for a left hand Hill style bow or left for a right hand Hill bow. It may be the shooter that is more used to shooting with a center shot bow without any cant. When an arrow is too stiff for me, they fly loggy and up and right out of my left hand bows because of the cant.
Scout9753,
Thanks for your input. I have indeed shot with cock feather in before. The shafts fly equally well either way so I don't pay much attention to orientation especially when swing drawing nocking on top and using a back quiver per Schulz/Hill method.
I think I will clean up the side plate and nock cock in for awhile to see if it moves the wear point. I considered removing the side plate and using some electrical tape as a side plate just to see what might happen. Brace height is dialed in to the sweet spot per Kirk's advice from other threads.
It shoots well I might tinker a little for fun just to see.
QuoteOriginally posted by 58WINTERS:
Scout9753,
I considered removing the side plate and using some electrical tape as a side plate just to see what might happen.
Do this. After a while the black tape will mark your shaft where it contacts the plate. If your mark is near the tip, the arrow is weak. If the streak is back at the fletch end the shafts are too stiff.
Also, I gave up on trying to bare shaft tune a Hill style. Just cut too far from center. Fletch them up and shoot at distance with a mixture of boadheads and field tips. If they all hit the same you are good to go.
2 HOOKIN'
Thanks for the input.
58
I heard of using lip stick on the side it does the same thing only quicker.
I have tried the lip stick test on a couple of other peoples recurves that had rather wide shelf space. However, the bow in the picture does kind of have that test already done. There may be a slight tagging showing on the other side of the leather, if I am seeing it right. I wonder how it would look after a few thousand shots passed over it and those corners were taken down some.
On all of my longbows the crown of the sight is near the lams. If they didn't come that way, they are that way now.
Is it possible that the belly side of the sight window/striker plate is just thicker than it should be?
Pavan, Can you explain what you mean by " the crown of the sight is near the lams" Thanks, Greg
Sorry I, did not spell check, iphone is trying to read my mind. I have the crown of the SIGHT WINDOW more near inside of the bow lams. The one place you cannot twist a standard longbow is at the laminations. I do not believe that one would torque the grip out of alignment as easy with proper hand placement while the bow is under draw pressure, but once that is released, the reaction can turn the grip a bit if there was a twisting pressure in place. On the bows that I have done myself, the sight window is cut so the belly side tapers in. On bows like my reverse Morningstar, the window has a nice taper and the arrow contact is slightly favoring the belly for its total contact, right where it should be for a reverse grip. On one of my Hills I did not want to file away the sight window, so I cut a piece of the strike plate leather off on the belly side. That helped a lot, so of course my next step was to reshape the window a bit, move the crown forward by taking material off the belly side and use it with no leather strike plate, that worked even better and allowed me to use stiffer arrows and still not jeopardize the strength of lamination side of the riser.
I should have added that if the bow in the pic was mine and had that contact, the first thing I would do is take the strike plate leather off set the brace right in the middle of the recommended, put the nocking point at the minimum recommended height below the arrow and find the arrow that works best. Of course for me that would be a wood arrow cut to the shortest possible length with target points that match my broadheads for my shafts that were to have broadheads and shafts cut to net length for target arrows. With Hill style bows, net length wood arrows are the easiest of all to shoot with target points and blunts. Just pick the head weight and get some test shafts fletched, (I have gone to four 4" for targets) cut them to the right net length, the arrow that flies the best at 20 yards is the shaft spine you go with. If I still had concerns about contact, then I would do the lip stick test.
I had the stricker plate off and the arrows started to wear the finish off at the same spot. I might have to concider reshaping the side plate like you said.
A little at a time and remember deep cross grain scratches are hard to sand out. I should have asked, how does the string line up to the center of the limbs and is there any odd recoil reactions when it is shot? Does the bow seem to turn down, in or out at the shot? I like to be sure that the bow grip comes right where the inside of the base thumb joint meets the wrist. I like to use very thin strike plates, I can always build them out if needed. I reduced the leather strike plate on my bows by shaving them very carefully with a razor, giving them a thin on the edges shape.
Oh, a big question. Where is your arrow contacting your bow when it is at rest with an arrow in it, and also, when your bow is at full draw, how does the arrow contact the side plate? I just checked my standard Hill style bows and there is a slight gap right your arrow is contacting the side plate.
(http://i.imgur.com/fsVMYlql.jpg)
Here is a picture of it at rest.
I have a new Tembo 51#@28". I'm using 2016 cut at 30" with 145gr tips. I had to orient the feathers 1 up/2 down. Paper tunes great.
I took one look at that pic and sent out a PM.
WOW!
What did Craig say about this?
I did not get a response. so I contacted him again a said I was sending it back for him to check out. He is going to do that.
Almost like the handle is not at a right angle to the bow, considering the arrow angle, but the string to limbs and handle line is not shown. The contact point shown in the first pic was not kidding. If things all line up, sight window, if they don't it's something that I have never seen before.
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffg:
(http://i.imgur.com/fsVMYlql.jpg)
Here is a picture of it at rest.
The shelf is on the wrong side bro... that's gotta be the problem... :biglaugh:
Oh that's the problem. You were the first to notice that.
I am sure Craig will make things right.
No doubt in my mined
Craig check the bow out and said the top limbs leans to the left causing the wear. He is correcting the problem.
Good deal! Well if nothing else theres a bunch of good tips in this thread. As a Hill owner I'm also glad to hear Craig's taking care of you!
The top limb was leaning a little to the left. Craig replaced the bow. I knew he would make it right.
Now you can experience how good those Surewoods can work for you. No doubt, Craig is a top flight guy. No one is perfect, how someone handles issues like this shows their character.