Just wondering what the penetration is with wooden shafts as opposed to aluminum or carbon. I'm thinking about using woods with my kodiak Hunter 43@28. Going to use Ace 125 standards. I think my arrows come in at 488 grains.
Thanks in advance
A huge penetration stopper is, if the wood arrow fails behind the point, the shaft breaks. Aluminum is a much more stronger material than wood. Footed wood shafts help strengthen this area. Soft tissue is usually no issues, but hitting bone can cause a break. At your bow weight, you will be using wood shafts that are more difficult to keep straight. Just wondering why the appeal of wood for hunting?
I started out with wood in 1994 using journeymen 145 and a 52# recurve without many pass through arrows. I had several bury in the opposite shoulders and no problems. I then switched to aluminum and had similar results. I used carbon for three or four years with 275 grains on the front out of a 51# longbow and the arrow never seemed to slow down going through, amazing penetration, even though bone. I'm back to wood for 2 seasons now with my longbow and always get an exit but not always pass through with a 160gr 3 blade. Sharp heads are the key. If I were to hunt anything bigger than whitetail I think I'd use carbon again.
I've taken 3 animals with the same Surewood shaft. Complete pass through each time. As long as you don't strike bone and are shooting nothing tougher than deer the arrow should be fine.
Have used all three, plus fiberglass. Have never lost an animal due to shaft breakage. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it hasn't to me in 47 years of hunting.
You can certainly make a case that you gain a slight difference in penetration with a "skinny carbon" but wood arrows have been killing game much, much (I'll stop with much only twice) longer than aluminum and carbon combined. Concerning large critters, read Dr. Ashby's research on penetration. He thoroughly tested and a great deal of the time used, dare-I-say-it, wood arrows.
Just wondering, why wooden arrows for a 43lb. bow should be more difficult to keep straight?
:coffee:
From my experience with wood the lighter the spine the more difficult they are to keep straight and are not as strong on impact. I am not arguing the effectiveness of wood arrows. This hunter is shooting 43 pounds at 28". I believe with this setup, he will be much more effective at getting penetration and have way less headaches (keeping straight, consistency, quality of materiel) with a material other than wood at that bow weight.
Hello thanks for the responses. I always wanted to hunt with wood and I'm using my grandfathers kodiak Hunter. I would like to make my own wooden arrows eventually. I bought some three rivers wooden shafts that were stained and crested I fletched them and mounted the points. I believe the spine of the arrows are 55# they seem to fly good out of the bow. All my other bows are 45#. I do have both carbon and aluminum arrows just think it would be awesome to take a deer with a wooden arrow that I created. Please keep the feedback and advice coming, it is greatly appreciated!
You could shoot 20 different shots with arrows of a variety of make and get 20 different results. Wood shafts have been killing animals longer than any other material out there. The argument for shooting wood arrows is the exact same argument for shooting a traditional bow. Just my opinion but its supported by a couple thousand years of proof.
Like some others here my son and I only shoot wood and I have some observations.
If you buy quality wood keeping shafts straight has never been a problem for me regardless of bow weight.
Never had a shaft break in the animal; we have had shafts break outside the animal crashing into trees and the ground.
Carbon and alu can be skinnier than wood and a skinny shaft will penetrate better
In my experience penetration is more about shot placement than anything else including bow weight.
I agree with Dragonheart. I really like wood arrows and have shot quite a few deer with them. When I dropped my bow weight to below 50# I began having very few complete penetrations on deer. I switched to carbons and my arrows drive through the animals. I believe as Dragonheart has mentioned it is mainly due to the shafts recovering from paradox quicker and a stronger shaft upon impact.
I shot some POC shafts with 190 points on them into brick. I used an unmentionable bow with wheels to get max velocity. Shafts were 23/64 spined at 70#.
The one shaft that broke was one that was fish tailing on impact. The others survived (2). After that I stopped worrying about shafts breaking on game.
It is harder to maintain high FOC with wood and I know we don't all agree on this, but I think adhering as closely as possible to Ashby principles improves penetration.
I have hunted with wood and carbon. Although I have hunted longer with wood arrows...I see my carbon arrows out penetrate wood by a noticeable margin.
Because carbon does not flex as much on impact , you loose less energy in the "Tail wag " of the arrow as it penetrates.
have taken moose with both carbon and wood..Wood has worked for centuries. If penetration is the most important factor for you, use carbon. If you want more tradition use wood...JMHO I hunt with arrows that weigh approx 600 to 650 grains...If my set up is lower # I only go as low as 575 grains..
For heavier wood arrows use laminated maple, 5/16" ramin, or get shafts from Forrester Wood Shafts.
I hear about this straightness problem all the time with wood arrows, the only time that I got some snaky shafts was when I bought a bunch off of 'Ecrap', they looked like an arrow makers reject pile, I call them 'shoot aways' after they are straightened. I have never once had any penetration issues with wood with my family and friends. I have lost count of how many deer that I have helped drag out that were shot with bows 45 or less, wood arrows and two blade Bear and Zwicky heads. I like Wapiti cedars and Surewood Doug firs, Wapiti makes doug firs as well. If you want to make those guys hate you, be sure to ask for the straight ones when you order. I have gotten two shafts that would not straighten and stay straight from Wapiti or its predecessor Rogue River, that is two out of about 1000 shafts, maybe more. It is rare that they need much serious straightening, but I check them anyway. I have seen cases with cheap mill run light kids weight cedars that had snaky problems, but not at the 40 pound plus spines with higher grade and hand selected shafts.
Here is a young bull I shot with a carbon arrow..if you look at the hip you will see a small spot . This is where the arrow came out of the bull. He was quartering to me and although it is not a shot I take most of the time I was 17 yards and could see a crease in behind the shoulder and took the shot. The arrow went through 4 feet of moose. The bow was a heavier bow at 63# . The arrow was a carbon express HERITAGE weighing 650 grains...when I found the moose the fletch was still under the skin and hip but the majority of the length of the arrow was sticking out like an antenna....I was amazed at the penetration..
(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff383/bte1958/Brads%20Moose%202_zpsjxfipf9y.jpg) (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/bte1958/media/Brads%20Moose%202_zpsjxfipf9y.jpg.html)
I have to agree with Forrester. I've got possibly the heaviest shafts he ever made, and they're incredible. Straight as a laser, perfect tapers and in leopardwood of all things.
Those Forrester shafts are tempting. While I do not doubt the effectiveness of high foc with carbons, my tapered carbons have gotten complete pass throughs with every hit, in the past couple of years I have found three dead deer with shredded carbons sticking out of them. All of these were mechanical heads. Another case a fellow shot a deer with a muzzleloader and found shredded carbon spikes inside the muscle tissue of a deer. He is keeping his fingers crossed that he does have a piece of it moving through him. I will no longer allow anyone to use carbon arrows on my land.
You can get high FOC with wood, just switch to tanged heads. Forrester is set up to make arrows that way.
I like my wood shafts, but I think i'm done using them for deer.
Last season, had a pretty decent younger buck come in at 20 yards, quartering to me pretty tight. Probably should have skipped the shot, but took it anyways. 63# bow, center punched the the shoulder, arrow broke off right behind the broadhead. Watched the deer limp off about 700 yards before I lost sight of him.
Found the broadhead maybe 20 feet from the shot, tip slightly bent about a quarter inch.
Might have happened with a weighted carbon, but I doubt it. No doubt that wood can be just as effective on a good shot, but take a stupid shot and hit something hard enough to snap it, and penetration is 0.
Do you have any pics of those tanged heads?
I am surprised that he does not use bubinga, a wood worker that I know has it in various sizes and cuts. He said that is is his favorite wood and really easy and clean to work. My next bow will have a bubinga riser.
http://www.darkknightarmoury.com/c-583-traditional-arrowheads.aspx
http://www.medieval-fightclub.com/categories/Archery/Arrowheads/
I'm using tanged heads for my sirdan arrows and they're insanely tough. Like split a sapling tough.
Wooden arrows are adequate for hunting or war. Tens of thousands of years of history can't be wrong. Tune 'em up and shoot 'em.
Wood arrows have taken a lot of animals over the years.They proven themselves over time. Why not use them? If you want to use a wood arrow, go for it!
I'm figureing "Skipper" will jump in here soon..... :coffee:
I shoot Alum, carbon and wood. Different arrows for different bows and types of shooting. Although not hunting, I have broke more Alum and Carbon stumping that I ever have with wood. If it's tough enough to stump with...........and history seems to agree, many game animals have fallen to a wooden shaft.
Lol! Boy I'm biting my tounge on this one and will hold back but if you have had the failures your describing the quality of the arrows were probably lacking.
I've been shooting wood(Doug Fir) for 10+ years after getting rid of POC's and have never had one single arrow failure since. Most are pass thru's except turkeys, two, three and 4 blade didn't matter. Lots of animals and have had several arrows kill many animals with no damage and never have to straiten any of them. You get what you pay for, like said wood arrows have been killing animals forever cleanly and efficiently. IMHO
Tracy
Thanks for the replies! It is greatly appreciated!
QuoteOriginally posted by K.S.TRAPPER:
Lol! Boy I'm biting my tounge on this one and will hold back but if you have had the failures your describing the quality of the arrows were probably lacking.
I've been shooting wood(Doug Fir) for 10+ years after getting rid of POC's and have never had one single arrow failure since. Most are pass thru's except turkeys, two, three and 4 blade didn't matter. Lots of animals and have had several arrows kill many animals with no damage and never have to straiten any of them. You get what you pay for, like said wood arrows have been killing animals forever cleanly and efficiently. IMHO
Tracy
My story was involving douglas fir as well, from one of the top rated suppliers. Not going to name names, because I don't think the quality was an issue.
I have used cedar, douglas fir, and ash. My favorite is ash, I like the weight of them with a 125gr woodsman. I would like to even increase my broadhead weight. I believe the most weight you can shoot well with your set-up is the way to go, The arrows just thump and knock the you know what when you hit your game, that is what I want.
My first couple of deer were killed with a 50# recurve and POC shaft's.
Both mid chest shots at 15 yds or so , both pass thru's.
Love wood but use carbons now for the convenience.
At one time wood was all there was and were still here.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sam McMichael:
Wooden arrows are adequate for hunting or war. Tens of thousands of years of history can't be wrong. Tune 'em up and shoot 'em.
Sam is spot on!
I prefer wood...animals are just as dead.
QuoteOriginally posted by Doug_K:
I like my wood shafts, but I think i'm done using them for deer.
Last season, had a pretty decent younger buck come in at 20 yards, quartering to me pretty tight. Probably should have skipped the shot, but took it anyways. 63# bow, center punched the the shoulder, arrow broke off right behind the broadhead. Watched the deer limp off about 700 yards before I lost sight of him.
Found the broadhead maybe 20 feet from the shot, tip slightly bent about a quarter inch.
Might have happened with a weighted carbon, but I doubt it. No doubt that wood can be just as effective on a good shot, but take a stupid shot and hit something hard enough to snap it, and penetration is 0.
I had the "exact" same experience with a weighted Carbon shaft this past year. Arrow had nothing to do with the lost deer just bad shot placement on my part.
QuoteOriginally posted by Doug_K:
I like my wood shafts, but I think i'm done using them for deer.
Last season, had a pretty decent younger buck come in at 20 yards, quartering to me pretty tight. Probably should have skipped the shot, but took it anyways. 63# bow, center punched the the shoulder, arrow broke off right behind the broadhead. Watched the deer limp off about 700 yards before I lost sight of him.
Found the broadhead maybe 20 feet from the shot, tip slightly bent about a quarter inch.
Might have happened with a weighted carbon, but I doubt it. No doubt that wood can be just as effective on a good shot, but take a stupid shot and hit something hard enough to snap it, and penetration is 0.
Taking "stupid shots" with any arrow will yield poor results. Othe arrow materials probably wouldn't have killed it either....just lamed the deer worse.
Never unsterstood why people think they can take firearm shots with an arrow.
If the tip of the broadhead bends because of hit angle anything can happen. I once had a Microflite 12 with a Hill head, epoxied ferrule with a few serving wraps around the end, blow when I hit a rib shooting almost straight down off a ledge. I do not know if I killed the deer with shredded fiberglass or the nearly sideways bent broadhead that was still stuck on part of the shaft. A buddy of mine years ago bought a new bow that was 12 pounds heavier, but did not want to get new arrows. "they'll just have to work." is what he said. They were much too long for him and I offered to shorten them for him. I got him to test shoot one of his broadheads, they kicked a pretty big S curve for 12 yards and were flying straight at 20 yards, so he declared them good enough, "no need to cut these down". First week of the season, he took an eight yard shot, hit a rib and the Bear broadhead snapped off, zero penetration. A month later he shot that same buck again, with his shortened, this time good flying arrows and got a pass through.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Like some others here my son and I only shoot wood and I have some observations.
If you buy quality wood keeping shafts straight has never been a problem for me regardless of bow weight.
Never had a shaft break in the animal; we have had shafts break outside the animal crashing into trees and the ground.
Carbon and alu can be skinnier than wood and a skinny shaft will penetrate better
In my experience penetration is more about shot placement than anything else including bow weight.
...and there are variables in a hunting shot we simply cannot control. Shot placement, while a variable we have some control over (skill level, experience, choice to take a given shot), Animals move.
You have a 50-50 chance anytime you shoot at game of hitting bone. Yes, wooden arrow are effective. I guess having only 43 pounds of force on board, based on my own experience with wood arrows shooting much more bow than 43 pounds, leads me to the conclusion to not recommend that material for that setup.
Our choice in arrow material is a variable we can control. I have shot a lot of critters with wood arrows, probably more than any other material. I still would not recommend that material to an archer shooting below 50 pounds.
I just believe that those lighter set-ups need to focus on other areas for penetration performance, since the force is limited.
Broadhead choice, skinny shafting material, quicker recovery from paradox, and mass weight are variables in the arrow equation that can be utilized to maximize penetration. that really helps when we do our part, but the animal moves or we get a bone hit...
Ed, thanks for those links. I see several there that might be fun to experiment with.
I feel i'm on the defensive here, so I'm going to reiterate that I like wood shafting. I enjoy building arrows out of them, & I enjoy the traditional aspect of them.
My experience on shouldering deer is limited to the one I mentioned (thankfully), however, I've seen that shot from a lighter bow/carbon arrow combination at similar range break the shoulder and penetrate the vitals. I've also broken more wood arrows in target practice than I've damaged carbons & aluminum in all aspects of archery.
The term "Good enough" is different for each of us. A wooden self bow is "good enough", though i'd wager that 75% of us use fiberglass backed bows. Wooden arrows were "good enough" for war because that was the best available, not to mention humane kills weren't a priority.
Obviously it would have been better to not take the shot, hindsight 20/20 and all. But, to me, just questioning whether or not that arrow was the difference between a wounded or dead animal tells me that it's not good enough for me.
Small game? Yes. Turkeys? Why not? Deer and bigger? I'll pass, so long as better options are available.
Each their own.
I spent a lot of time stump shooting woods. Hard hits broke the shaft right behind the Judo.
Same for carbons.
I would not hesitate to shoot woods for deer.
The best I ever shot were compressed and tapered cedars. Sadly, no longer available.
Use what makes you feel comfortable because in the end that's all that matters. I will only use wood because that's all I have used since the 80's and I'm confortable with it.
Thanks so much for the input. I likely will be shooting Easton xx75 500 spine arrows with Magnus stingers. I will eventually like to try wooden arrows someday and will do so in the future. I did hunt with wooden arrows for turkey this year but not shots presented itself. I greatly appreciate all the input and feedback.
Be careful comparing shots. A failed arrow / broadhead on one shot simply cannot be compared to another that didn't fail, because it was a different shot with very different circumstances. The shoulder is a complex area, not just a smooth bone of similar density and thickness, and it moves. . . deflect any shaft, or bullet for that matter, and you just changed the outcome. Add to that shot locations and angles that really should not be taken and you have other issues.
Now, carbon may be stronger, or stiffer or etc. but as was pointed out, wood works well too.
If you just cannot do without the fastest / strongest / never failest, I suggest you get a .338 Win Mag and keep shots close.
The above is just my opinion, and I can't prove any of it.
ChuckC
I've hunted with nearly every kind of wood shaft you can buy. When it all boiled down I ended up using cedar shafts and have blown through every major bone in a deer (except the head). I've never had a wood shaft hit a shoulder and break but rather they just zip right through. I've shot through bull elk, black bear and numerous mulies and whitetails. They are quieter off the bow. My arrows with the original Bear Razorheads on them come in between 600-625 grains and I'm shooting them from a 72#@27" Bear T.D.
QuoteOriginally posted by longbowman:
I've hunted with nearly every kind of wood shaft you can buy. When it all boiled down I ended up using cedar shafts and have blown through every major bone in a deer (except the head). I've never had a wood shaft hit a shoulder and break but rather they just zip right through. I've shot through bull elk, black bear and numerous mulies and whitetails. They are quieter off the bow. My arrows with the original Bear Razorheads on them come in between 600-625 grains and I'm shooting them from a 72#@27" Bear T.D.
You are shooting a 72# recurve. No real comparison to this archer wanting to know about penetration with a 43# recurve. Sounds like you have a great equipment set-up!
My wife has shot over a dozen deer with bows that are about 38 pounds at her 26.5" draw all with wood arrows and all from the ground. We found every deer she hit except one that was a low leg nick after an aluminum arrow clipped a branch and was knocked off course. All of the others except one was either a pass through or the broadhead was sticking out the other side. The one that was not two holes, the deer jumped on the shot. The 25 year old wood arrow entered the back right ham and stopped in the far left shoulder blade sticking most of the right wing Grizzly on a left wing wood shaft into the shoulder blade. If someone with a longer draw than her's wants to shoot a deer with a wood arrow, I am sure that it can be done.
My first bow was 46#, shot Cedars spined 50/55 with Bear Razorheads. Took a few deer, penetration at 25 yds and under was either half or up to the fletching.
Switched to Forgewoods, Compressed Cedar, small diameter. Those same shots, same head resulted in pass throughs. Quality wood shafts from a quality supplier require very little work to keep them straight.
I use aluminum for my trips out west, flatter trajectory at longer distances plus durability. Made up some Surewood Doug Fir last year, no problems with straightness or toughness and no problems with penetration out to 30 yds with my 55# bows.
Taking questionable shots, hitting bone will result in lost animals. Never had an ash, Forgewood or Fir break off behind the point when hitting a shoulder and sliding around. I'm not a fan of PO Cedar although that's all we shot in the late 60's and early 70's. I preferred a more durable wood like those offered today.
Your setup at 43# with the arrow wt your shooting is fine. Keep your shots 20 yds max, and take the broadside or quartering away shot. Place the arrow in the lungs and you'll be taking home venison.
What bow was she shooting? 38# 26.5" that's amazing results.
Properly spined and tuned arrows are the key. Have been shooting wood arrows for 43 years and have had pass throughs with bows from 40-68#. Shot placement, sharp broad heads and well tuned arrows are key. Plus they are fun to make.
:campfire:
One thing to remember, the number on the side of the bow is only a number. As in the case with my wife's bows, they shoot the same arrow the same speed at the same draw as some Hill style longbows that are ten or more pounds heavier. With an even faster bow like a Dryad or a Bigfoot, the difference would be even more apparent. As with any set up, getting the arrow directly behind the broadhead at impact is key to good penetration.
I knew Skipper would show up,sooner or later!!! :thumbsup:
I've used wood arrows almost exclusively out of 50+ lb bows with no penetration problems. Most pass through on deer. Never broke an arrow inside a deer but I've seen the arrow break when the head passes through but the fletchings hang up on the hide, leaving the shaft dangling out the exit wound.
Nothing wrong with wood shafts. They are quieter than aluminum and carbon for the simple reason they're not hollow.
POC shafts are the easiest ones to work with but are more fragile. The only time I've had a cedar arrow break is when I've missed or had a pass-thru,both instances where the arrow hit something hard at an angle.
Sitka spruce is a great arrow wood to work with and very strong but also light.
POCs and Sitka spruce take soaking in stain well plus doing this adds weight.
Ash is a good heavyweight wood but does need heat to straighten.
I still use aluminum and the only carbons that my bows shoot have the Grizzlystik name on them. Other carbons are much too light for me.
Yes I'll stick with wood.
Doug K, some folks just don't want to take the time to make wood arrows, or wait for a better shot selection. You are not going to get a good shot on every deer you see, no matter how much you want it or try to justify it. Woods work, they have for years the will continue. I could tell horror stories about Easton and carbon arrows too if marginal shots were pushed.
:campfire:
There is much more than simple penetration to achieving the end result of a successfully taken game animal. In an unmoving and constant-density target, carbon will have better penetration than wood. My problem is that I've yet to encounter a constant-density game animal that will stand absolutely still until the arrow is all the way in.
There are other and better reasons (I think) to choose carbon if you please. I think the guy who gets the MOST penetration is the guy who gets close, doesn't compromise on his shot selection, and is deadly accurate....regardless of the shaft he chooses.
Good point Kevin, I really appreciate all the feedback ! Thank you
Its kinda a mind game, this "thinking" that we do. I know you want to know the answer, that's all, but it may not be as simple as all that.
Wood and aluminum and carbon are different critters. There is the ultimate answer, which is better at penetrating, yes, but there is the alternate answer that we shouldn't lose sight of, that all three of them are fine (and have been proven such).
The finish and thickness of the shaft matters a lot, the substrate being penetrated matters a lot, the broadhead type matters a lot, the arrow flight at the time of the hit matters a lot, the weight of the projectile (and even the profile of that weight distribution) matters a lot, the game type ( large or small) matters a lot, the distance of the shot (and ultimate loss of initial speed and momentum) matters a lot, the fact that the critter can move at the wrong second, or simply be pushed by the projectile ( and thus move) can matter a lot.
All of these things can affect the penetration of any given projectile as much or more than the actual make up of the arrow.
My head hurts
ChuckC
I posted earlier that I hunt with both. Carbon will out penetrate wood . But like we all are saying a good wood arrow will work very well too. When I use wood arrows for hunting now I use laminated birch or I buy ash wood and cut them 3/8 square and then dowel them with an arrow planer John struck invented and it works great. You get the satisfaction of making an arrow from scratch. I use Canada goose feathers and natural Turkey feathers on the homemade shafts. Ash is tough and fairly heavy. I have made one self nock arrow with a stone head but must admit it is time consuming and not easy. Had a friend help me with that arrow. He makes some of the nicest arrows you will ever see . That stone head arrow will be hunted with my selfbow sometime in the future when the right hunt and theme comes up. If I was using a light weight bow under 50 lbs I would use carbon arrows though . Jmho
We had a period where we used the laminated birches. When they were right for the bow they were good, I found that they liked a lot of feather drag and had a fairly short forgiveness window as in loggy versus acting under spined. They did give great penetration when everything was right for them. My wife hated the weight and the length her's needed to be. The problem I had with them was the crossover from target points to broadheads. I needed longer lengths to satisfy lighter narrow target points and shorter for 160 grain broadheads. I always set up my arrows so my broadhead just tags my finger at full draw, I have my wife doing the same. It is one part of our form that I will not give up. I see quite often when archers lose a bit more draw than they realize when shooting at game or targets that spook them. We are no different, but having a draw check that is always built into the arrow has become a standard for us. With arrows that are around 27" bop it is very difficult to get some shafts to tune. I find that the narrower aluminums work better than the fatter ones. The 18 and 19 size aluminums is all I will use for bows 60 pounds and under. I do believe that a 1920 and an 1820 has more penetration potential than an 11/32" cedar, but wood still works on whitetails in Iowa just fine.